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Louie Mitchell Whidden, Witness for the State
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MR. PANOSH: Mr. Whidden, please.
LOUIE MITCHELL WHIDDEN, JR., being
first duly sworn, testified as follows during DIRECT EXAMINATION by
MR. PANOSH:
Q Would you state your name,
please.
A Louie Mitchell Whidden, Jr.
Q And your occupation, please?
A I am a Baptist pastor.
Q Are you an
ordained minister?
A Yes, sir, I am.
Q When were you
ordained?
A I was ordained on May the 17th of
this year.
Q And your
congregation is in Florida; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Drawing your
attention to the period of time prior to
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working as a minister in Florida, where were you,
sir?
A I was in school at Lynchburg, Virginia.
Q And prior to being
in school in Lynchburg, Virginia, where were you, sir?
A I was at Camp Lejeune Marine
base.
Q And were you an
enlisted man in the United States Marine Corps?
A Yes, sir, I was.
Q When did you enter the Marine
Corps, please?
A August the 19th of '94.
Q And you had a four-year
commitment; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what was your assignment
there, your original assignment in the Marine Corps?
A I was a TOW gunner in the
infantry.
Q And in the course of your duties
there, you went through basic infantry training; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Toward the end of
your four-year commitment, did you receive a transfer to the
chaplain's corps?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Would you explain
that, please.
A I requested a transfer to be out
to the chaplain corps for the last six months, to assist them, so
that I could learn more about what chaplains do in the Marine Corps.
1410
Q You were not a
minister while you were in the Marine Corps; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And what were your duties during
the period of time that you were with the chaplain's corps?
A Mostly clerical, just clerical
type activities, and taking care of whatever cleaning or clerical
activities that the chaplain would ask me to do.
Q Did there come a time in the
period of months when you were with the chaplain's corps when you
met the defendant, Ronnie Kimble?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you tell the ladies and
gentlemen of the jury how you met him.
A Shortly after I was detached out
to the chaplain corps, I met Ronnie Kimble. He would deliver
supplies out to the chapel where I was working weekly. He would
bring them out there and give them to us.
Q And during the
period of time that you knew him, what was your relationship?
A We were somewhat coworkers and
friends.
Q How frequently did
you see him?
A About once a week.
Q Under what circumstances would
you see him?
A I would see him when he would
bring supplies out to the
1411
chaplain's office. And occasionally, I would see him
in the midweek, and we would all meet together at the main
chaplain's base.
Q And other than associating with
him in the course of your duties, did you do things with him as a
friend?
A No, sir.
Q Did there come a time when he
came to your facility -Where was your facility, to start with?
A It was at Courthouse Bay at Camp
Lejeune, towards the back of the base.
Q Did there come a time when he came
to your facility and you and he spoke in reference to the death of
his sister-in-law?
A Yes, sir, he did. We would go
back in the back recreational facility from time to time when he
would come out, and he would talk to me about the case and say that
they were accusing his brother of things, and he would discuss it
with me.
Q During those periods of time when
he discussed it with you, did he give you any details about the
case?
A Yes, sir, he did.
Q What do you recall him telling
you?
A He told me that they were
accusing his brother of having some involvement in his wife's death,
and that they were questioning him, to try to get to his brother.
1412
Q Did he give you details of the
actual death?
A Yes, sir. He told me that they
had a -- he told me that they had a witness that saw a car that was
similar to his leaving the scene of the accident. And I recall him
mentioning something of a large tool box being moved in the house.
He would basically go over things with me that would come up in the
case, because he told me he was trying to figure out for his self
who actually committed the murder.
Q Now, when you eventually left the
Marine Corps, where did you go?
A I went to Lynchburg, Virginia, to
attend college.
Q And what school is that?
A Liberty University.
Q And what type of studies were you
pursuing?
A Pastoral ministries.
Q And did you go there in August of
'96; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q When you left the Marine Corps,
did you have any further contact with Ronnie Kimble?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q When was that?
A Sometime later after I left, he
called and -- he called me on the phone and expressed interest that
he would like to come up and visit the school.
Q Between the time you left the
Marine Corps, and the
1413
time you got that initial phone call from Ronnie
Kimble, did you have any other contact with him?
A No, sir.
Q When you left the
Marine Corps, had you formed any type of an opinion as to his guilt
or innocence in regards to the death of his sister-in-law?
A Yes, sir. I thought he was
innocent at that time.
Q You were living at Liberty
University on the campus itself; is that correct?
A No, sir.
Q Where were you
living?
A I was living at a townhouse about
10 minutes from the school.
Q And who were you
living there with?
A My wife and two children.
Q When Ronnie Kimble called you,
did he call you at that townhouse?
A Yes, sir, he did.
Q And would you relate to the
ladies and gentlemen of the jury what you recall of that
conversation.
A He called me to ask questions
about the school, because he said that his father went to the
school, and that he was interested in coming and pursuing the work
of the ministry, by attending the same school that his father did
and that I was going to attend.
1414
Q What, if anything,
did you tell him?
A I invited him to come up and stay
with my family and I for a couple of days, while he checked out the
school and to sit in through classes with me.
Q Were any definite plans made?
A Not at that time.
Q Did there come a time on or about
January 20-- or prior to January 24th of 1997, when you received
another telephone call?
A Yes, sir, there did.
Q Would you tell the
jury about that.
A He called and said he would be
traveling near the area, and that it would be a good time for him to
come up and possibly check out the school, if he could get away and
had extra time to get over there.
Q And during
that conversation, were plans made for him to visit you?
A There was no specific day
scheduled, just a tentative that he would come up soon.
Q Did there come a
time when you received another telephone call?
A Yes, sir. He called me from the
-- from the campus and let me know he was in town and he would --
that it would be a good time for him to come visit.
Q And what, if any,
arrangements were made?
1415
A We agreed that I would go meet
him at the campus and then he could follow me to my house and stay
with us a few days.
Q Did you do that?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q And do you recall what the date
was when they arrived or what the day of the week was?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q When they arrived, was it before
or after dark?
A It was after dark.
Q And when they
arrived, who arrived at your home?
A Ronnie Kimble and his wife.
Q On the evening that they
arrived at your home, what did you do?
A We got acquainted with one another, talked for a
little while, and then went straight to bed.
Q Went straight to
--
A Went straight to bed.
Q Were there plans
made for the following morning?
A Yes, sir, there was. He had
planned to go to class with me in the morning.
Q And what time was your class in
the morning?
A 8:00 o'clock.
Q Now, how big was
the townhouse that you were occupying? A It was two bedroom, one
and a half bath, small
1416
townhouse.
Q And were the bedrooms up or down?
A The bedrooms were upstairs.
Q And what accommodations or
arrangements were made to allow the Kimbles to stay with you that
night?
A They slept upstairs in the
children's room, on a mattress on the floor, while my children slept
in our room with us.
Q Tell the jury what happened the
next morning.
A The next morning, we all got up,
and Ronnie and his wife went to school with me in the morning and
set through class.
Q You said it started at 8:00. How
long did the classes go?
A They went from 8:00 to noon, with
breaks in between.
Q And did Mr. and Mrs. Ronnie
Kimble stay with you throughout that time period, from 8:00 till
noon?
A No, sir, they did not.
Q Do you know where they went?
A Yes, sir. They left to go grab
something to eat and -actually, we left together at one point, to
go try to meet with the chancellor of the school, so that he could
speak with him, and the chancellor was not available, so I went back
to class, and they went out to see the campus and to grab something
to eat.
1417
Q Did you get
together again around lunchtime that day?
A Yes, sir, we did.
Q Would you tell the
jury about that, please.
A We -- I rode into the campus with
them that morning, so we rode back to the house at that time. And
then they left shortly after, to go back up to the school, to try to
meet with the chancellor once again.
Q When you say "they
left," who left?
A Kim and Ronnie.
Q And did they come
back later in that afternoon?
A Yes, sir, they did.
Q Tell the ladies and
gentlemen of the jury what you remember about the events of that
afternoon, going into the evening.
A We set around the house, played Nintendo awhile,
and later on, we went out to eat that evening.
Q Before you went out to eat, do you remember
anything specific occurring?
A I remember a phone call that was
made. Kim called her mother, I believe it was, to tell her that she
had met with the chancellor of the school, and to let her know how
that went.
Q Do you remember
anything else about that particular phone call?
A Yes. The phone call was cut
short, because her mother
1418
was on the line with an investigator or detective of
some sort. And Ronnie Kimble got very upset about it. I remember him
being very mad about that.
Q Eventually, were they able to contact Mrs.
Kimble's mother?
A Yes, they were. I believe she
called back to our house, and that's when they talked, and they
discussed the -- they discussed apparently the subject of the phone
call that was made to her mother by the detectives or investigators,
whoever it was that had called them about this case.
Q After that phone call, did there
come a time when you went to dinner?
A Yes, there did.
Q Do you remember where you went to
dinner?
A Yes. We went to Country Cooking.
Q And when you say "we," who are
you talking about?
A My children, my wife, Ronnie and
Kim Kimble.
Q In the course of that dinner, was
there certain conversation that you recall?
A Yes, there was. We talked, and
Ronnie was talking about the ministry and expressing an interest in
going into the ministry, but he was making excuses and made the
statement that his past was haunting him, that he thought some
things in his past might prevent him from going into
1419
the ministry, and said he would like to discuss that
with me later.
Q Do you recall what happened after
dinner?
A Yes. We went to a -- we went to
Best to shop. We did some shopping. And then we drove back to home.
Q What occurred when you and your
family and Ronnie and Kimberly Kimble arrived at your home?
A We went inside and assembled a
chair that I had bought at the store, an office chair. And shortly
after, Ronnie said he needed to talk to me about some things, and
asked if we could go upstairs away from the girls, to talk.
Q What did you do?
A We went directly upstairs, into
my bedroom.
Q What occurred in your bedroom?
A Ronnie Kimble told me that he'd
killed his sister-in-law.
Q Would you tell the ladies and
gentlemen of the jury the details of that conversation.
A We went in and set down at the
bed, and he said he had some things that he wanted to tell me, but
he was afraid to tell me, because he thought the things that he
would tell me would come back to haunt me. And he wanted to know if
he was sure -- if I was sure that he could talk to me. And then we
prayed together, and he proceeded to tell me that he killed his
sister-in-law. I asked him why he killed his
1420
sister-in-law. And he told me that he did it out of
greed, and that his brother would pay him to do it.
He also told me that -- he asked me if I could do
something with the money, if I could possibly give it to the
university or use it in some way to put it to use at God's work. And
I told him that he should not do that, that that was blood money,
that I didn't want it. And he told me that he -- he wanted to know
if it was -- if it would send him to hell if he killed his self. I
told him that he would not go to hell for killing his self, but that
he should not think of such things and that he should turn his self
in.
Q What, if anything, did he respond, when you suggested that
he turn himself in?
A He said that he was not going to
turn his self in, that he would die first.
Q Did you have further discussions
with him?
A Yes. We talked and he asked me --
he asked me if I would like him to leave. I told him I thought that
would be best. Then he asked me if I thought any less of him. I told
him I didn't know what to think of him. And we then decided together
that we would find an excuse for him to leave that night. And so, we
were going to go down and look at The Weather Channel, to see if the
weather would be a valid excuse for him to leave, without his wife
getting suspicious of him leaving so abruptly. And we went down and
1421
looked at The Weather Channel, and the weather wasn't
bad, so we agreed that he could stay the night, provided that he
left first thing in the morning.
Q Did you have a conversation with
him about how this was affecting his relationship with God?
A Yes, we did.
Q Would you tell the jury about
that, please.
A I told him that in order to be
right with God, he would have to turn his self in, and have to
confess to what he's done. He then told me that he had already asked
God's forgiveness, and that it was okay -- it would be okay, because
it was her time to go anyway. And I said, "Well, at least you can't
lie. You're lying to the people that are asking you. And you know
that's wrong." And he said, "But they never have directly asked me
if I did it."
Q In your discussion, do you know
what he meant when he said it was her time to go?
MR. HATFIELD: Objection to what
he meant.
THE COURT: Overruled. Well, sustained as to what he
meant.
Q Based upon your discussion, what
was he indicating when he said it was her time to go?
MR. HATFIELD: Objection. That's
exactly the same question.
MR. PANOSH: Let me rephrase that.
1422
THE
COURT: Sustained.
Q Did he say anything else in that
topic?
MR.
HATFIELD: Objection. He's already told the witness
what to say.
THE
COURT: Overruled.
You may answer.
A He said that -- what he said was
that it was her time to go, and that she would have died either way,
because basically when your number's up, your number's up and that's
it.
Q After you talked about the
possibility of him leaving early, what occurred?
A We went downstairs and checked The Weather
Channel, and decided that they could stay till morning.
Q Why was that?
A I would have asked him to leave
that night, but I did not want to upset him, I did not want to make
him angry, because in light of what he had just told me.
Q What occurred that night?
A We all went up to bed shortly
after, and I laid awake all night, while my family slept, until
morning.
Q What occurred the
next day?
A The next day, after they were
awake, they left.
Q And did anything occur after they left your home? A Yes. I moped
around the house awhile, because I was
1423
completely sick over what he had told me. And my wife
asked me why they had left so soon, and I couldn't even talk about
it. I just told her I didn't want to talk about it. And finally, she
asked me if he had killed his sister-in-law, and I had told her that
he did, and that I had to turn him in.
Q What action did you take in that
regard?
A I called my sister, to ask her to
come down and arrange a meeting with myself and Jerry Falwell, to
get some advice. And I also asked her to bring down her handgun, so
that I could have home protection.
Q And did your sister come down?
A Yes, she did.
Q And did she in fact help you
arrange that meeting?
A Yes, she did.
Q When did that meeting occur?
A That night, at a basketball game.
Q Would you describe that for the
ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please.
A We went into the basketball game and
sat down and watched the game by the Falwells and their family, and
afterwards, I spoke with Dr. Falwell about this.
Q What did you tell him?
A I told him that the young man
that had came and talked to him the day before, Ronnie Kimble, had
confessed that he
1424
had killed his sister-in-law, to me. And I asked him
what my moral and legal obligations were, in light of what he had
told me.
Q And did he give you advice?
A Yes, sir, he did.
Q And what was that advice?
MR. HATFIELD: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. HATFIELD: It's just hearsay.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A He then told me that I had no
moral obligation, unless they could provide protection for my
family, but that I should speak with a lawyer, his son, about my
legal obligations.
Q And did he arrange that meeting?
A Yes, he did.
Q And what did you do after meeting
with Dr. Falwell?
A I spoke with Dr. Falwell's
son, which is a lawyer. And he said that he would look on the
Internet and try to –
MR. HATFIELD: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q Without stating what Dr.
Falwell's son said to you, did he arrange for further meetings with
you? Did Dr. Falwell
MR. HATFIELD: Objection to
leading.
1425
MR. PANOSH: Let me rephrase that.
Q Did Jerry Falwell,
Jr., the attorney, arrange for further meetings?
A Yes, we did.
Q After that, what did you do?
A After that, I went and left the
ball game, and went home and grabbed a few items and went and got a
hotel for the night.
Q Who went to the motel?
A My family and I.
(Mr. Panosh showed an exhibit to
Mr. Hatfield.)
MR. PANOSH: May I approach?
THE COURT: You may.
Q I show you now State's 117. Do
you recognize that?
A Yes, I do.
Q And is that a
receipt for the hotel for that evening?
A Yes, it is.
Q And do you recognize the
handwriting thereon?
A Yes, I do.
Q Was that your
wife's?
A Yes, it is.
Q Why was it that you saw fit to
take a motel room that night?
A Because Ronnie Kimble then knew
where we lived and how to get to our house, and I wanted my family
to be somewhere
1426
where he knew we weren't at -- somewhere where he
couldn't find us.
Q What happened the next day?
A The next day, we left the
hotel, went to church that evening, and then I believe we returned
to our home.
Q Did there come a time when you left Lynchburg
and went to Camp Lejeune?
A Yes. Directly after, we decided that it would be
best to go down and try to talk him into turning his self in again
at Camp Lejeune.
Q Would you describe how you went to Camp Lejeune.
A My family and I packed up and
went down to Camp Lejeune for a couple of days and stayed with
friends, so that I could talk to him, try to convince him to turn
his self in one last time.
Q Did you stay on the base or off
the base?
A Off the base.
Q Did there come a time when you
came in -- when you contacted Ronnie Kimble?
A Yes, there did.
Q How did you do that?
A I went up to the chaplain base on
base and spoke with them and asked where he was, and then went over
to talk to him at the chapel he was stationed at.
Q When you found him, where was he?
1427
A He was in the main Protestant
chapel.
Q And what was he
doing?
A Cleaning and vacuuming the floor.
Q Did you have a
further conversation with him?
A Yes, I did.
Q Tell the ladies and
gentlemen of the jury how and where that took place. A He left
his cleaning and we went out to his truck, in the parking lot, and
set in his truck, while I tried to convince him to turn his self in.
Q Would you describe that
conversation, please.
A Yes. I tried to convince him to
turn his self in, asked him to, and he said -- and then he tried to
back out of it, by saying that maybe it was just a bad dream, that
all of this may have never happened. And I told him that if his
brother tried to give him some money, then he would know that he did
it.
Q Were you able to convince him to
turn himself in?
A No, I wasn't.
Q Did you have any further contact
with him after that?
A No, I didn't.
Q Did you return to Lynchburg?
A Yes, I did.
Q And when you returned to
Lynchburg, did you consult with an attorney, specifically Mr.
Yeatts?
1428
A Yes, I did.
Q And what did Mr. Yeatts tell you?
MR. HATFIELD: Objection.
MR. PANOSH: He'll be testifying.
THE COURT: Members of the jury, this is being offered
for the purpose of corroborating a later witness's testimony. It'll
be for you to say and determine whether it does in fact so
corroborate that witness's testimony. It's not being offered for the
truth or falsity of the statement, but whether in fact the statement
was made on that occasion to this witness.
Q What advice did Mr. Yeatts give
you?
A He told me that it would be a
good idea if I had some sort of agreement. So they then reached an
agreement with, I assume the District Attorney's Office down here,
stating that I would -- I would have police protection, in the event
that I -- in any information that I gave them that they could use, I
would have police protection if I needed it.
Q And thereafter, on February the
3rd of 1997, did he arrange for you to meet with agents of the State
Bureau of Investigation and the Guilford County Sheriff's
Department?
A Yes, he did.
Q Do you recognize Agent
Pendergrass and Detective Church as the individuals you met with?
(Indicated.)
A Yes, I do.
1429
Q And also present during that
meeting was Mr. Yeatts; is that correct?
A Yes.
(Mr. Panosh showed an exhibit to Mr.
Hatfieldthat over; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Are those the statements you gave
on February the 3rd, in the presence of your attorney, to Detective
Church and Agent Pendergrass?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, after you gave those
statements, what did you do?
A I withdrew from school, or I told
them I was leaving at school, and we packed our things and put all
of our furniture in a storage shed and moved out of state.
Q Why did you do that?
A In fear for our lives.
Q Did there come a time when you
returned to Liberty University in Lynchburg?
A Yes, there did.
Q And tell the jury about that,
please.
A After I was down there about six
months or so, the --
1430
Ronnie Kimble was in jail, so I came back up to
Lynchburg, to finish school.
Q And how
many semesters did you go to school at Liberty University?
A Three.
Q Were you able to finish your
program?
A No, sir.
Q And would you briefly explain
that.
A I was not able to finish my
program, because it was a four-year program -- or excuse me, a
four-semester program, that takes two years, and I missed the
semester that I needed to finish in that six-month period that I
left.
Q And thereafter -- after you
completed the studies you could, where did you go?
A To Florida.
Q And that's when you became an
ordained minister; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
MR. PANOSH: No further. Thank
you, sir. MR. HATFIELD: Is that all?
MR. PANOSH: That's all. Thank you.
MR. HATFIELD: Thank you.
Do you want me to go ahead, Judge?
THE COURT: Let's let the jury stretch. Take a
stretch, if you'd like.
1431
(Time was allowed.)
THE COURT: How long are you going to be with the
witness, Mr. Hatfield? Are you going to be examining the witness?
MR. HATFIELD: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: How long will it take, sir?
Do you have any idea?
MR. HATFIELD: I'm sorry. I truly don't
know, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Let's just go ahead
and take our afternoon break. It'll be a 15-minute recess at this
point. (The jury left the courtroom at 2:55 p.m.)
THE COURT: You may step down, Mr. Whidden. (The
witness left the witness stand.)
THE COURT: Court will be in recess 15
minutes. (A recess was taken at 2:55 p.m.)
(Court reconvened at 3:14 p.m.
The defendant was present. The jury was not present.)
THE COURT: Come back to the witness stand, please,
Mr. Whidden.
(The witness returned to the witness stand.)
(The jury entered the courtroom at 3:15 p.m.)
THE COURT: You may begin your
cross-examination, Mr. Hatfield.
MR. HATFIELD: All right. Thank
you, Your Honor.
1432
CROSS-EXAMINATION by MR. HATFIELD:
Q Mr. Whidden, you met Ronnie Kimble while you
were attached to the chaplain's department at Camp Lejeune; is that
right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that was within approximately
five to six months of the -- of your release date from the Marine
Corps; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q And as I understand it, you were
released from the Marine Corps in the middle of August of that
particular year; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Mr. Whidden, in connection with
your academic and attendance records at Liberty Bible Institute, I
believe that the term that you -- the first term that you completed
there began on July 1, '96, and ended on December 31, '96; is that
correct?
A Around those dates.
Q What I'm asking you is, my
understanding is, that semester began on July 1, but I understand
you didn't get out of the Marine Corps until the middle of August.
Can you explain that?
A I don't remember the exact dates
that that semester began. I know that I got out of the Marines on
August the
1433
19th, and that's when I was officially released. I do
not recall whether or not I took a period of leave. I may have taken
leave that I'd saved up. I do not recall.
Q Okay. So what you
clearly recall is, your release date from the Marine Corps,
obviously?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that was August
19th?
A Yes, sir.
Q But you may have accumulated
leave that allowed you to go and begin your studies at Liberty a
little early, before your official release from the Marine Corps; is
that what you're telling me?
A I'm not sure.
Q Okay.
A It's possible.
Q But if you went to Liberty as
early as July 1, then the period that you knew Ronnie Kimble would
be much shorter than what you described a little while ago, wouldn't
it?
A I don't understand the question,
sir.
Q Well, if the -- I
believe the '96 fall semester at Liberty began on July 1st and
concluded on December 31st, and I know that you completed that.
A Yes, sir.
Q And I'm just asking you, were you
in fact in Lynchburg as early as July 1, 1996, so that you could
complete that
1434
first semester at Liberty Bible Institute?
A I'm sorry, sir. I don't remember
the exact dates.
Q Okay. In any event, you do recall
that you completed the program, that first program -- that first
semester, got all of your course credits and everything, didn't you?
A Completed the first semester,
yes, sir.
Q And then the second semester
began on January 13, 1997, didn't it?
A I don't recall the dates again,
sir.
Q And do you remember what day you
withdrew from the school?
A I didn't officially withdraw from
the school.
Q You just packed up and left and
then notified them?
A I discussed it with the dean of the
Bible Institute, and then I left, and I withdrawed at a later date,
when I came back up to get my grades straightened back out.
Q So if the records indicate that
you withdrew on January 5th, that does not necessarily pinpoint the
day that you actually left?
A It may. What happened was, I did
not officially withdraw, due to time, I did not officially withdraw
with the registrar's office, and I left and went to -- went to
Florida. And when I came back up, I had to get a note stating the
reason I left and when I left, and then I assumed they backdated my
withdrawal.
1435
Q Okay. So the fact is -- and I
don't mean to suggest anything negative -- you simply left Lynchburg
with your wife and children, and then took care of official
withdrawals from the school and other things like that later; is
that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, assuming that you were
actually enrolled in your first semester at Bible college from July
1, can you recall when you first met Ronnie Kimble?
A I first met Ronnie Kimble shortly
after I went to the chaplain's department.
Q Do you know when that was?
A No, sir, I'm sorry. I don't
recall the dates.
Q There's a statement that you made on
February 3, 1997, that would -- if you looked at that and -- would
it refresh your recollection?
A I recall that I met him about
five or six months before I got out, because that was when I -- five
or six months previous to August 19th, because that's when I went
over to the chaplain corps.
Q Five or six months previous to
August 19th?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. Now, August is the
eighth month of the year, so if you subtract five months from that,
you go back to the third month of the year, which is March, isn't
it?
1436
A Yes.
Q So are you saying
that you probably met Ronnie Kimble around March of 1996?
A Sometime in that time frame. I
don't remember exact date, but in that time frame.
Q Now, when you met
Ronnie Kimble, you and he became friends; would that be the right
word to describe it?
A Yes, sir.
Q But I think you said a little
while ago that you didn't socialize with him in any way or anything
like that; is that correct?
A We weren't close friends, we were acquaintances
and friends. We --
Q You were married and he was
married; is that right?
A Yes.
Q And you had two
children at that time?
A Yes.
Q Can you remember your -- the
dates of birth of your children, so you can give me an accurate
answer to how many children you had? You met him in March of 1996.
How many children did you have in March of 1996?
A At that time, I believe I only
had one.
Q And of course, you
would have had your hands full with a wife and kid at Camp Lejeune.
Did you know anything about Ronnie's marital status at that time?
1437
A Yes, sir. Sometime after we met,
he told me he was married. I remember, because I saw a picture of
his wife and him on the desk.
Q Now, prior to
January of 1997, when you received a visit from Ronnie and his wife,
you had never actually met Ronnie's wife, had you?
A No, sir.
Q And in turn, your
wife had never met Ronnie or his wife, had she?
A No, sir.
Q Now, did you know that Ronnie's
wife basically lived in Julian, North Carolina, and not in the Camp
Lejeune area?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q So I take it that
the reason you didn't become social friends was just because you
were married and he was married and your paths didn't cross in that
way; is that right? A I can't say the reason we didn't become
close friends. My wife and I didn't have a large social life with
many friends.
Q Did you ever talk to Ronnie about
activities that he engaged in while he was in -- during regular
duty, that is, not on the weekends around Camp Lejeune? Did he tell
you any of his activities?
A Can you elaborate on the
question, please.
Q Well, you were getting to
be friends with him, even
1438
though your wives weren't friends. Did Ronnie tell
you any activities that he engaged in?
A Yes, he did.
Q What did he tell
you he did?
A He said he liked to fish.
Q Did he tell you
anything else about his activities?
A That's about all I recall.
Q Did Ronnie tell you anything
about donating plasma and receiving token payments when you give
plasma?
A I don't recall.
Q I'm sorry. Someone
was coughing. What was your answer?
A I don't recall, sir.
Q Did Ronnie Kimble tell you about
going out with friends of his and looking for scrap brass and other
semivaluable metals?
A I don't recall.
Q He didn't tell you anything like
that? At the time that you knew Ronnie before you withdrew from the
Marine Corps, did you know what kind of motor vehicle he drove?
A Yes, sir. He drove a truck.
Q Is that -- are you
basing that on your visit to him in January, after you talked to him
about Patricia's death, or are you basing that on what you knew
between March and August of 1996?
1439
A I knew that before, because I had
rode with him in his truck, we were moving some furniture for the --
Q Did he bring --
when he went on his rounds around the various chaplain offices, did
he drive his truck or did he drive a Marine vehicle?
A He drove a Marine vehicle.
Q Now, at one point,
you said that you saw him about once a week. Is that accurate?
A Once to twice a week, roughly.
Q So if you were up
at Liberty Bible College in July, and if you met him in March, that
would have been approximately a five-month period, wouldn't it?
A That sounds accurate.
Q But didn't you say on a prior
occasion that it was a couple of months before he mentioned anything
to you about the trouble that was going on in Greensboro, that he
was worried about?
A I don't recall whether I said
that or not.
Q In any
event, he didn't just start talking about investigations of his
sister's (sic) death in Greensboro the first time you ever met him,
did he?
A I'm sure he wouldn't have.
Q Well, it's
important that you remember what happened at the time, so that this
jury can decide.
A Yes, sir.
1440
Q Did Ronnie tell you on more than one occasion that there was an
investigation of his sister's (sic) death going on?
A Yes, sir, he did tell me on more than one
occasion.
Q And can you tell us
how many occasions he told you that?
A I -- that would be hard to guess,
sir. You're correct in stating that he didn't tell me that right
away. But we would talk about it on occasion, and I would -- I -- it
would be hard for me to guess how many occasions he talked to me
about that.
Q You could not guess
sitting here today how many times he talked to you about that?
A I don't think so.
Q Well, now, I know that you
didn't socialize with him, and I understand that you were married,
but have you ever been out with him in public, say at a mall or a
restaurant or a bar or anything like that?
A Yes, sir. I believe on one occasion, we had
lunch together, just off the base, during our lunch break.
Q You have never seen
Ronnie Kimble demonstrate any violence to a person, have you?
A No, sir, I haven't.
Q And I know you're
both good Christians and both married men. There was no fighting
during the period of time you
1441
knew Ronnie, was there?
A Between us?
Q Well, you never
observed Ronnie engage in a fight with anybody or anything like
that, did you?
A I saw him engage in an argument
one time.
Q And was that with
one of his co-Marines?
A It was with a Navy personnel.
Q And where was that?
A That was at the -- at the base
chaplain's office.
Q You didn't see any violence
displayed, did you?
A No, sir.
Q Did Ronnie Kimble ever let you
know that he possessed any weapons while you knew him at Camp
Lejeune?
A No, sir.
Q Did he have a
pistol?
A I don't know.
Q You have no reason
to think he did, do you?
A No.
Q He never told you
he did, did he?
A Not that I recall.
Q And he never showed
you one, did he?
A No.
Q And you -- he
wasn't interested in weapons of mass destruction and all of that
stuff, was he?
A Not that I recall. Most -- it
could have came up in a
1442
conversation, but not that I recall.
Q You can't remember
it, can you?
A I remember one conversation that
was out of the ordinary.
Q And tell us about
that.
A We were sitting around talking,
as Marines do often, about if there was a wartime, if we were
actually in war, could we kill someone, if we had to. And the reason
this sticks out in my mind was, there was debate, some said they
could, some said they thought it would be hard, but Ronnie Kimble
looked at me and said that he knows that he could kill someone, if
he had to.
Q And that's the training that
every Marine receives, isn't it?
A Yes, sir, it is.
Q And you received it, too, didn't
you?
A Yes, sir, it is.
Q How many people
were present for that discussion?
A There were roughly four of us
standing around there.
Q Was it part of a
discussion in the chaplain's office or something like that?
A Yes, sir, it was.
Q And do you remember when that
was?
A I don't remember any exact dates.
Q But it stuck in
your mind, didn't it?
1443
A Yes, sir, it did stick in my
mind.
Q You didn't really
have to think about it to remember that just now, did you?
A No, sir.
Q Now, you said that
there were many occasions, you couldn't guess how many, when he
alluded to the arrest -- I mean the investigation in Greensboro of
Patricia's death; is that right?
MR. PANOSH: Objection. That was not
his testimony.
Q Did you say that --
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. HATFIELD: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt.
THE COURT: You may rephrase it.
MR. HATFIELD: Yeah. Thank you, Your Honor.
Q Didn't you say a
minute ago that there were quite a few occasions when he brought up
the subject of an investigation of Patricia's death in Greensboro,
so that you could not guess how many times he brought it up?
A If I had to guess, I would say
under 10.
Q Under 10?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you have to guess, or if you
really think about it, can you remember how many times?
1444
A No, sir, I can't remember how
many times.
Q You know that, if
you knew him five weeks -- I mean five months, and there are four
weeks in each month, that there might have been 20 weeks at most
that you and he were acquainted; isn't that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you know he didn't bring this
stuff up right away, so the first few weeks, there was no
discussion; isn't that fair to say?
A Yes, sir.
Q So there maybe
were 15 weeks that you knew him when he might have -- you would have
seen him once a week or perhaps twice a week; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q So being fair in
estimating, you probably never even laid eyes on the man more than
25, 30 times; isn't that right?
A That sounds accurate.
Q And you didn't
talk about his problems with investigators in Greensboro every time
after he first brought it up, did you?
A No, sir, we didn't.
Q And there were
times when other people were around, and that kind of thing wouldn't
necessarily come up anyway; isn't that right?
1445
A Yes, sir.
Q So out of 25
possible times, making allowances for some number of times that
there was no discussion, how many times do you actually think you
and he had private conversations about his concerns about this
investigation?
MR. PANOSH: Objection. He's
answered.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A Again, I couldn't make that statement
accurately, except to say it's safe to say it was under 10.
Q All right. Now,
you had a piece of paper in front of you that indicates that you
made a statement to the investigators, Mr. Church over here, and Mr.
Pendergrass, right behind Mr. Church. You know those gentlemen,
don't you?
A Yes, I do.
Q You've talked to
them this morning, haven't you? A Yes, sir.
Q And probably
yesterday; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you talked to them on other
occasions, haven't you?
A Yes, sir, I have.
Q Among Mr. Church
and Mr. Pendergrass and Mr. Panosh, you've discussed this case quite
a bit, haven't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Well, then, why is it so hard for
you to remember the
1446
details when you're in here in front of the jury?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q Do you recall the paper -- Will
you please tell me what the number is on that paper that you've got
in front of you.
A 130.
Q 130?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you -- I believe you've told
Mr. Panosh already, you've had a chance to read 130 before, haven't
you?
A Yes, sir, I have.
Q Now, is 130 an accurate
summary of what you stated concerning this case?
A Yes,
sir, it's basically accurate.
Q Now, February 3rd was within one
week of the time that you say that Ronnie Kimble told you he killed
Patricia, wasn't it?
A Yes.
Q So, obviously, whatever he said
to you, and whatever you said to him, it would have been fresher in
your mind then than at any other time, wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir, it would.
Q Now, will you look at Page 2 of
the exhibit that you have in front of you, 130, and I'll ask you to
look at the
1447
first three lines on -- at the top of that page. Do
you see that, those lines, or the second line and the third line and
part of the fourth line, do you see that, on Page 2?
A Could you
repeat the lines, please, sir.
Q Yeah. The second,
third and fourth lines on Page 2, do you see those?
A Of which paragraph?
Q Of the top
paragraph, at the very top of the page.
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you see where it says, "...
Whidden stated, he was befriended by Kimble and recalls on one
occasion Kimble telling Whidden about the death of Kimble's
sister-in-law"? Do you see that?
A Yes, sir, I do see it.
Q So you had your
lawyers, Mr. Yeatts and Mr. Falwell, and you had the investigators,
Mr. Pendergrass and Mr. Church, and it had only been a week since
you'd had your conversation with Ronnie Kimble, and you told those
gentlemen that on one occasion he mentioned this? A No, sir,
that's incorrect.
Q It is incorrect?
A Yes, sir. I believe, if I'm
not mistaken, sir, that that was a reference to one specific
occasion.
Q "After meeting Kimble, Whidden stated, he was
befriended by Kimble and recalls on one occasion Kimble
1448
telling Whidden about the death of Kimble's
sister-in-law. Whidden stated he was told by Kimble that the police
suspected Kimble and his brother of the murder." Didn't you tell
those gentlemen --
MR. PANOSH: He's answered that question.
Q -- that it was one
occasion?
A I was speaking of one specific
occasion, sir.
Q So it doesn't mean what it
says?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q It's inaccurate, isn't it?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
Q It doesn't accurately –
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q -- reflect your
position on this subject, does it?
A I couldn't say, sir. The way I
read it, I would think it means one specific occasion. I'm not
exactly sure, the way it's written, what it means.
Q Well, then, since I might have
read it wrong, beginning with the words "After meeting Kimble,"
would you read it, and let's see how it sounds.
A Yes, sir, I will.
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: He's read it. Sustained.
MR. HATFIELD: Well, he hasn't answered the
1449
question.
THE COURT: I think he has, sir, to the best of his
ability.
One more time, read it, if it would help you, sir.
A Would you like me to read it out
loud?
Q Yes, I would. Thanks.
A "After meeting Kimble, Whidden
stated, he was befriended by Kimble and recalls on one occasion
Kimble telling Whidden about the death of Kimble's sister-in-law."
Q Would you read the rest of the
sentences in that paragraph.
A Yes, sir. "Whidden stated he was
told --" "Whidden stated he was told by Kimble that the police
suspected Kimble and his brother-in-law of the murder. Whidden
stated Kimble went on to say that the police wanted to arrest
someone for the murder and did not care who they arrested."
Q Is that accurate? Is that what
Ronnie Kimble told you?
A That was basically what he told
me.
Q Told you that they wanted to
arrest somebody and they didn't care who they arrested; is that what
he told you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, in the next -- in the third
paragraph, if you'll look down, beginning with the words "On January
24th," you stated that Mr. Kimble and his wife appeared unexpectedly
at your house in Lynchburg, didn't you?
1450
A That's what the statement
says. That's not the way that I recall it.
Q So, once again, the statement is inaccurate,
based upon your recollection; is that right?
A It was not unexpected. It was --
If I can elaborate on that. It wasn't -- it wasn't unexpected, in
that we knew he was coming, but the specific day he was going to be
there was a little shock. I forget exactly what the arrangements
were made, but I remember that it was -- it was unexpected in that,
that specific date, but we did know that he was coming.
Q Now, it says a little further
down in the same paragraph that certain discussions took place
between you and Ronnie Kimble, according to the statement, on July
20-I mean, I'm sorry, on January 24, 1997, doesn't it?
A Yes, it does.
Q Now, just to try to clarify the
time frame, the Kimbles arrived at your and your wife Debra's house
on late evening hours of the 23rd, didn't they?
A Yes, sir.
Q And as you said a little while ago,
they called you and notified you that they were in the vicinity, and
rather than try to explain all the lefts and rights and things, you
just went over and met them and led them back to your house; is
that correct?
1451
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you did not in any way feel
imposed upon by that, did you?
A No, sir, I didn't.
Q And he was a friend of yours from
the Marine Corps, and you were glad to see him, weren't you?
A Yes, sir, I was.
Q Now, when he -- when you knew --
when you got that call, the ball was in your court, wasn't it? You
could have either said, "Ronnie, you know, I've got a kid and
another one on the way, and a very small townhouse. You know, maybe
it would be better if you'd get some accommodations at a motel and
I'll see you tomorrow morning and show you around." You could have
done that, couldn't you?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
MR. HATFIELD: I'm not asking --
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. HATFIELD: -- him to speculate.
THE COURT: You may answer that.
Q You could have done that,
couldn't you?
A Yes, sir, I could have.
Q And it wouldn't have offended
Ronnie Kimble in the least, would it?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
1452
Q You felt that it
was not too big an inconvenience for you to have these people into
your home, and that you'd find someplace for them to sleep; isn't
that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, do you recall
exactly what time everybody got back to your house?
A The evening of the 23rd?
Q Yes, sir.
A It was after dark. If I had to
guess, I would say it was around 9:00, but I can't be accurate on
that.
Q Do you remember, at
that time, did you have one child or two children?
A At that time, we had two
children.
Q All right. And another one on the
way?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you have three children now?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q Were the two children that you
had then, did they have a little bedroom beside your wife's and your
bedroom, or did just one of them have it?
A They shared the same bedroom.
Q So there was a children's room
and a parents' room?
A Yes, sir.
Q And I believe you said that
you put a mattress on the floor for Ronnie and Kim, and the kids
came in and stayed
1453
with you and Debra; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, do you remember whether
Ronnie Kimble took a shower before they went to bed?
A No, sir, I do not.
Q Do you remember his telling you
that he had a bunch of glue on his body, due to electrodes that had
been attached by Navy medical people over in Portsmouth?
A That sounds familiar.
Q You knew why Ronnie Kimble was in
Virginia that particular time frame, didn't you?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q What was the reason?
A He was going for some sort of
test at a naval installation.
Q Do you know where that naval
installation was?
A I couldn't be for sure.
Q Well, most naval
installations are on the coast, aren't they?
A Yes, sir. It was more than likely at Norfolk,
Virginia.
Q Or in the general vicinity of
Norfolk; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Have you been to Norfolk,
Virginia?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
1454
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q Have you been to
Portsmouth, Virginia?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q You spent
three and a half years in the Marine Corps; is that right?
A Three years and nine months.
Q Did you ever go to
the naval medical facility in Portsmouth, Virginia for any reason?
A Not that I recall.
Q Now, when Ronnie
got to your house, do you recall that he told you that he had this
glue on his body and it was sticky, and he needed to take a shower?
A I don't really recall. Like I
said, that sounds familiar, but I couldn't be for sure.
Q You can't remember?
A No, sir.
Q You can't even remember whether he took a shower?
MR. PANOSH: He's answered, please.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. HATFIELD: Well, he's answered that he can't
remember.
THE COURT: He's answered that, Mr. Hatfield. Move on.
MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, it's going to take a
1455
long time to cover this case --
THE COURT: Well, we're going to move along, and you
need to move along.
Q You said you had a bath and a
half in this apartment?
A Yes, I did.
Q Where was the shower?
A Upstairs.
Q There's only one shower in the
entire apartment; isn't that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, the next day, what
time did you all get up in the morning?
A I would guess around 7:00, between 6:00 and
7:00, because school started at 8:00.
Q And you went off and you went to some classes,
and after a while, Ronnie and Kim drifted off on their own; is that
correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q They didn't go to all the classes
that you went to that morning, did they?
A No, sir.
Q And in the afternoon, did you all
meet back at your place?
A I rode back home with them. They
met me at school, and they -- we drove back home together.
1456
Q What time did you get back to your house?
A I would guess around 12:15, 12:30.
Q And then, did you
stay at your townhouse the rest of the afternoon, until you went out
to eat, or were there some afternoon activities?
A We stayed at the townhouse, while
Ronnie Kimble and his wife left sometime after lunch, to go back up
to the campus.
Q Now, when you spoke
of the chancellor, you were talking about Dr. Wilmington, weren't
you?
A No, sir.
Q You were talking about Dr.
Falwell?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you learn later in the day
that Ronnie and Kim had a chance to see Dr. Falwell?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q And what time did Ronnie and Kim
come back to your townhouse after they'd seen Dr. Falwell?
A I don't recall the time, sir.
Q Do you remember what activities
the family and Kimbles engaged in during that period?
A Yes, sir. We played Nintendo.
Q Did you watch any videos?
A Not that I recall.
Q Well, are you
having difficulty recalling the details of this event?
1457
MR. PANOSH: Objection to comments of counsel.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. HATFIELD: That's a question, not a
comment.
THE COURT: Move along.
Q Well, do you
remember looking at a video of Dr. Falwell?
A I don't remember that
specifically.
Q Do you remember a
video that you had in your house, of Dr. Falwell appearing on "Larry
King Live" and debating Larry Flynt, a guy that has a dirty magazine
that he'd made millions of dollars off of? Do you remember that?
A I remember having that tape. I don't remember if I had it at
the time.
Q Did you show it to Ronnie and
Kim?
A I don't recall.
Q Can you tell me how
Ronnie and Kim would know about that tape, if you didn't show it to
them?
MR. PANOSH: Objection, please.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q Did you tell them
about that, or did you look at it?
Q MR. PANOSH:
Objection. He's answered.
THE COURT: He says he didn't recall.
Q Isn't it a fact that you looked
at it, and everybody laughed and thoroughly enjoyed that video?
A I don't recall.
1458
Q You recall a
confession of murder, but you can't recall anything else; is that
your testimony?
A A confession of murder would
stick in my mind more than a day-to-day conversation I would not
remember a year later.
Q All right. So you
don't remember what your activities were that afternoon with the
Kimbles. Do you remember what time you went to dinner?
A Sometime in the evening.
Q You don't know what time?
A I don't recall the exact time,
sir.
Q Now, in going to
dinner with the Kimbles, who paid for the dinner meal?
THE COURT: How is that relevant?
MR. HATFIELD: The Kimbles paid for it.
A I
don't recall.
Q You don't recall?
A No, sir.
Q Do you recall what you had to
eat?
A I recall that we ordered the
meat, and we had to get the vegetables, because it was a vegetable
bar.
Q Now, what time did
you leave the restaurant?
A Sometime after dark.
Q Well, this was January, so dark comes early, doesn't it?
A Sometime after
dark.
1459
Q Do you remember
where you bought the chair?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where was that?
A Best.
Q Is that Best Products?
A Best Department Store, sir.
Q Best Department Store? How many
chairs were purchased?
A I believe Ronnie Kimble bought
one, also.
Q So the two of you bought chairs,
Ronnie --
A I believe he bought one. I know I
bought one.
Q Looking at your
statement of February 3rd, do you see anything in there about buying
a chair?
(Time was allowed for the witness.)
A No, sir, I don't see anything in
regards to buying a chair.
Q Now --
A I didn't think that was relevant.
Q -- after the chairs were
purchased, they were loaded into your vehicle and brought back to
your townhouse, weren't they?
A Yes, sir.
Q Along with your two kids and
everybody else; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then, did the Kimbles put
their chair in their car,
1460
unassembled in the box?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the other chair was taken
into your apartment?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, isn't it a fact that Ronnie
Kimble got down on the floor and assembled that chair?
A Yes, sir, it is.
Q And isn't it a fact that your
oldest kid -- what's your oldest kid's name?
A Mitchell.
Q Mitchell had a hilarious time
playing with Ronnie in that chair, didn't he?
MR. PANOSH: Object to relevance.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, I want to
cross-examine the witness about everything that happened, so we can
determine if his memory is good.
THE COURT: Objection sustained. Move
on.
Q Do you remember your child and
Ronnie playing together?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
You don't have to answer.
Move along.
Q Do you remember making a
statement to Mr. Panosh over here on July 21, 1998, in his office?
1461
A Yes, sir, I remember making a
statement to him.
Q Do you remember that?
A Yes, sir.
Q And Mr. Panosh carefully took
down everything that you said about these events; do you recall
that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you have that statement in
front of you?
MR. HATFIELD: Would you furnish the
witness with a copy of it.
MR. PANOSH: Your Honor, there is no
statement.
MR. HATFIELD: He was interviewed, and I was given a copy
of what he said.
MR. PANOSH: Your Honor, all I did was
a telephone interview of Mr. Whidden, and I gave Mr. Hatfield a copy
of my notes only.
THE COURT: Is it a signed
statement, Mr. Hatfield?
MR. HATFIELD: No, sir.
THE COURT: All right, sir. Move along.
You may ask him about any conversation he had with Mr. Panosh, if
that's the gist of the notes.
(Time was allowed for Mr. Hatfield.)
THE COURT: You may stand and stretch,
if you'd like.
(Further time was allowed.)
1462
Q Mr. Whidden, when
you talked to Mr. Panosh on the telephone on July 21st of 1998 -- do
you remember having that conversation with Mr. Panosh?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q Were you trying to
relate the facts of your encounter with Ronnie Kimble as best you
could when you talked to Mr. Panosh?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, did you tell Mr. Panosh that
it was a month or two after you met Ronnie that you first became
aware that there had been a murder at all?
A That sounds accurate.
Q All right. So, assuming that
you knew him five months, as we said earlier, it would have only
been through a period of about three months that he would have
discussed this with you; is that right?
MR. PANOSH: We object.
Q Is that --
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q -- correct, sir?
A It could have been as many as
four months.
Q All right. And did
he tell you that his brother had not done this crime?
A Yes, sir, he did.
Q And did you say to
-- and did he tell you that at one
1463
time, someone had said that his car had been seen at
the
time of the murder? He told you that,
didn't he?
A Yes, sir.
Q And this was a
matter of concern to him, that the investigators were telling him
his car had been seen at the time of the murder; is that right?
A Yes.
Q But didn't he tell
you, according to what you told Mr. Panosh, that that was
impossible, because he had a receipt from a gas station from across
town? Is that what you said to Mr. Panosh? A Yes, sir.
Q So, you remember
something about a gas receipt; is that correct?
A Yes, I do.
Q And you thought that Mr. Kimble
was saying to you that the gas receipt proved that he hadn't been
in the vicinity; isn't that what your understanding was at that
time?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then you said,
"Every time he would come out, he would tell me more details"; isn't
that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q So what you told
Mr. Panosh on July 21, 1998, where you said, "Every time he would
come out, he would tell me more details," is quite different from
what you told Mr.
1464
Pendergrass and Mr. Church when you said on one
occasion; isn't that right?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q It's substantially
different, isn't it?
A No, sir.
Q That's not
different?
A No, sir.
Q All right. Now, you recall -- of
course, your statement to Mr. Panosh over the telephone was not
under oath, was it?
A No, sir.
Q You were just trying to tell it
as best you could; isn't that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, do you
remember testifying under oath in these proceedings, when the jury
was not here, about the matters that you are testifying to today?
A Yes, sir.
Q And do you remember that you were
asked the question, not by me, but by someone else, "On how many
occasions approximately did you and he discuss this?" Do you
remember that question?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what was your
answer?
1465
A I believe I answered five to six.
Q If I said that you
-- that your answer was "Estimated three to four," would that
refresh your recollection?
A Yes, sir.
Q Thank you. Now, in
connection to talking to Mr. Panosh on the telephone about this
case, and making reference to a woman who had seen him near where
Patricia's house was, and making reference to a gas receipt, you
said, "I remember thinking at the time that did not really impress
me, because anyone could get a receipt." Did you say that?
A Yes, sir.
Q So at that point in time, you had
concluded that he was probably guilty of that business that they
were investigating him for, because you didn't even believe what he
had to say about it, did you?
A No, sir, that's incorrect.
Q Then why did you
say, "That did not really impress me, because anyone could get a
receipt"?
A At that time, I still thought
that he was innocent, yet, I said that, because that seemed to be
the evidence that he was relying on to keep him from being charged,
and I remembered thinking that he's got to have more than that,
because that's not very impressive.
Q You were judging
this man, while he thought you were his friend, weren't you?
1466
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
A No,
sir, I wasn't.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q You were forming opinions on a
weekly basis, as he came out and visited you and shot pool, you were
forming opinions about whether or not you thought he was somehow
actually guilty of this stuff; isn't that right?
A Yes, sir, I was forming opinions.
Q And you
told Mr. Panosh that "He," meaning Ronnie Kimble, "had said he was
trying to figure it out in his own head, and he was always going
over it with me"; isn't that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Those were not admissions of
guilt by him, were they?
A No, sir.
Q Then there was some
reference to a tool box, wasn't there?
A Yes,
sir.
Q What did he tell you about the
tool box?
A I remember him telling me
there was some large tool box that was moved, so that they thought
there may have been more than one person involved.
Q And you thought to yourself, I'll bet Ronnie
Kimble was involved in this, and so was some other person; isn't
that right?
1467
A No, sir.
Q Then you said, "He didn't --"
MR. PANOSH: Your Honor, there are no
quotes in here at all. We object. These are simply my notes.
Q Did you say at that time, or
words to this effect, "He didn't really let on that they were
investigating him, also"? Did you say that?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, in your February 3rd
statement, will you look on Page 2 of your February 3rd statement.
(Time was allowed for the witness.)
Q On your February 3rd statement,
you said that you were told by Kimble -- I'm talking about the top
paragraph on Page 2 -- that the police suspected Kimble and his
brother of the murder. That's what you said to Yeatts and Falwell
and Mr. Pendergrass and Mr. Church, isn't it?
A That doesn't sound accurate.
Q So there's another inaccuracy in
the earliest statement that you made; is that right?
(Time was allowed for the witness.)
A I may have been referring to a
later date, than the previous conversations. The previous
conversations took place, he never let on that they were
investigating him. And then at a later date, it was -- he did tell
me towards -- more towards the time before I got out that they were
1468
investigating him, also, because of the people that
were coming down to interview him on the base. So that was two
different time frames.
Q But you didn't tell Mr. Falwell
and Mr. Yeatts that, did you?
MR. PANOSH: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q I mean, how could they have known? It's just
inaccurate, isn't it?
A No, sir, it's not. It's referring
to two different time frames. And these are parts of several
different discussions.
Q The fact is, Mr. Whidden, when
you talked to Mr. Yeatts and Mr. Falwell and Mr. Pendergrass and Mr.
Church, you didn't want them to know that you had had a whole series
of conversations with Ronnie Kimble, and you knew all about the
police investigation in Greensboro, and you knew what Ronnie
Kimble's concerns were, didn't you?
A Could you rephrase the question,
please.
Q Yes, I can. When you were talking
to Messrs. Yeatts, Falwell, Pendergrass and Church, you did not want
them to know that you in fact knew all about this investigation in
Greensboro and the suspicions that the Greensboro police authorities
had about Ronnie Kimble; isn't that true?
A No, sir. That's an inaccurate
statement.
1469
Q You didn't want them to know
that, because you wanted to act like this was some sort of
spontaneous confession; isn't that right?
A No, sir, that's not true.
Q Well, then, why does it appear in
the written report that's been entered into the record of this case?
Why are there so many inaccuracies in that report?
MR. PANOSH: Object, please.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q It's not a very good account of what you told
them, is it?
A Yes, sir, it's a fairly good
account.
Q And yet, your memory should have
been better then than at any other time; isn't that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, you have said on a number of
occasions that Ronnie Kimble told you that he had a haunted past,
haven't you?
A Yes, sir, he did tell me that.
Q And yet, if you look at the
statement that you have in your hand, Exhibit 130, there's nothing
in there about a haunted past, is there?
(Time was allowed for the witness.)
A No, sir.
Q So this business about a haunted
past came up later, didn't it, add a little color to the story?
1470
MR. PANOSH: We object to comments. Ask that –
THE COURT: Sustained.
Disregard that, members of the jury.
Q Now, when did you decide that
Ronnie Kimble had told you he had a haunted past?
A The moment he told me.
Q What? Sir?
THE COURT: Repeat your answer, Mr.
Whidden. I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you.
THE COURT: He said he didn't hear your
answer.
A Could you please repeat the
question, sir.
Q Yeah. When did you first tell
anybody -- when do you contend that Ronnie Kimble said he had a
haunted past?
A The moment he told me.
Q But in fact, when you told Mr.
Panosh over the telephone what your recollection of these events
were, you said that you and Ronnie Kimble and your wives and
children -- your children, were riding in your van, and that Ronnie
Kimble said something about a haunted past, didn't you?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
A Yes, sir, he did.
MR. PANOSH: That's not --
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q Is that when you referenced the
haunted past?
A He talked about his haunted past
during dinner, and he
1471
further elaborated on some of that on the van ride on
the way home.
Q Now, are you saying to this jury
that you heard Ronnie Kimble say in the presence of his wife, while
riding in -while eating dinner with you and your wife and your
children, that he had a haunted past?
A Yes, sir.
Q And are you saying that you
concluded from that that he must have fooled around with some girl
and --
A Yes, sir.
Q But why would he tell you that in
front of his own wife?
A I don't know.
Q Did you think it was important?
A That he told me that?
Q Yes, sir.
A Not particularly.
Q Now, looking at State's Exhibit
130, that you have before you, and look -- if you please, look at
the third page. And there's one large paragraph there. If you would
go down that paragraph about two-thirds of the way, you can see the
language "Kimble further told Whidden that Kimble believed 'it was
her time to go'." Do you see that? (Time was allowed for the
witness.)
A Yes, I do see it.
1472
Q Now, when did he
tell you that it was Patricia's time to go?
A I believe he told me that during
the conversation upstairs in my home, when he confessed the murder
to me, in the course of that same conversation.
Q Now, do you
remember when you were talking to Mr. Panosh on July 21, 1998 over
the telephone?
A Yes, sir.
Q You told Mr. Panosh that after
Ronnie Kimble had been at your house and talked to you about the
investigation and his feelings about the investigation, that you
were very concerned about what you'd found out from him; is that
right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And so, you took it upon yourself
to pack up your car, with your wife and your two children, and drive
down to Camp Lejeune; is that right?
A Yes, sir, we did.
Q Do you know what day you think
you did that on?
A I don't remember the exact date.
I have a -- I have a receipt with a date on it, because I had to get
a pass to get on the base. I don't recall the exact date. I assume
it would have been somewhere around the 28th, somewhere in that time
frame.
Q Now, Ronnie Kimble
was in your house the night of the
1473
24th of January, and you say that on the 28th of
January, you went down to Camp Lejeune; is that right?
A Again, I don't remember the exact date, but it's
--
Q And then you had another conversation with
Ronnie Kimble down there; is that right?
A Yes, I did.
Q And isn't it a fact that you told
Mr. Panosh that during your conversation with him in Camp Lejeune,
you tried to convince him to turn himself in?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q And you talked to him about
whether God could forgive him; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then you told Mr. Panosh that
Ronnie said to you, "Nobody dies before it's their time to go"?
A That must --
Q Isn't that what you said to Mr.
Panosh in your telephone conversation of July 21st?
A I don't recall exactly what I
said.
Q If I showed you --
MR. PANOSH: May he finish,
please?
THE COURT: You may finish. You may finish your
answer, sir.
A I don't recall exactly what I
said. In the course of the conversations that I had with Mr. Panosh,
I would be
1474
talking -- we'd talk through one portion, and then I
would remember back to another portion at another date. And
sometimes they would interchange and get somewhat confused in the
source of -- in the -- as the conversation proceeded. Q So you're
not holding to this -- the fact that you told Mr. Panosh that you
told -- that Ronnie said something to you about it was her time to
go when you were down in Camp Lejeune, you're not holding to that
now?
A He did say that, but I -- but I
do not recall if he said it also when I was in Camp Lejeune. I know
he said it at the time of his confession, but I don't recall if he
repeated himself at Camp Lejeune.
MR. PANOSH: May we approach?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. PANOSH: We don't need the court
reporter. It's for scheduling.
(All three counsel conferred with the
Court at the bench.)
THE COURT: Members of the jury,
at this point, we are going to interrupt this witness's testimony.
We'll come back to this witness's testimony. There is a witness that
will be testifying who has commitments for the rest of the week,
will not be available. And so, by consent of the defendant and the
State, this witness is being taken out of sequence, for his
convenience, to get his testimony in. So please remember that
cross-examination of this witness will
1475
continue after the intervening witness.
You may step down, Mr. Whidden, at this time, sir.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
(The witness left the witness stand.)
1512
THURSDAY, AUGUST 20, 1998
(Court convened at 9:34 a.m. The
defendant was present. The jury was not present.)
THE COURT: Any matters we need to
take care of before the jury's brought in?
MR. HATFIELD: No, Your Honor.
MR. PANOSH: Not for the State, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: Let me see the attorneys
up here a moment.
(All three counsel conferred with the
Court at the bench.) THE COURT: Bring them in.
(The jury entered the courtroom at
9:35 a.m.)
THE COURT: Well, it's nice to have
the jury panel back this morning. I hope each of you had a restful
evening and feeling okay. Anyone on the panel experiencing any
problems today that I should know about, if you'll raise your hand,
I'll be glad to talk with you about that.
Okay. If the witness will please
return to the witness stand, please, Mr. Panosh.
MR. PANOSH: Mr. Whidden.
(The witness Louie Mitchell Whidden,
Jr. returned to the witness stand.)
THE COURT: Mr. Whidden, the Court
reminds you you're still under oath, sir.
Members of the jury, this is a
witness that we
1513
interrupted his cross-examination.
Continue --
MR. HATFIELD: Thank you, Judge.
THE COURT: -- Mr. Panosh -- Mr.
Hatfield. Excuse me.
LOUIE MITCHELL
WHIDDEN, JR., being previously duly sworn, testified as follows
during CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION by MR. HATFIELD:
Q Mr. Whidden, you saw your former
lawyer, Mr. Yeatts, testify yesterday afternoon, didn't you?
A Yes, sir,
I did.
Q When you consulted with him, he
was a lawyer for Liberty University; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q
And the term "Falwell and Yeatts"
applies to his -- the firm he now has; is that right?
A I'm not
sure about his firm now.
Q
Did you understand when you went to
see him that he was a university lawyer, and that you -- as a
student, you had the privilege of consulting with him, as part of
being a student?
A Yes, sir.
Q
You didn't have to pay him a fee or
anything like that?
A No, sir,
I didn't.
Q And is
that -- does that apply equally to Jerry
1514
Falwell, Jr., the other lawyer?
A Yes.
Q They were
both just like university health services or just like using the
university pool, that was just a benefit of being up there and being
enrolled; is that right?
A No, sir,
I don't think so.
Q It was
more than that?
A Yes, sir. I think it was a
special circumstance, that they --
Q So it was
a --
A -- were
allowed --
Q -- favor
--
A -- to
talk to me.
Q
-- done specifically for you?
A No, sir,
it wasn't. It was a -- it was -- I would say it was a special
circumstance that Dr. Falwell requested, in light of the situation.
Q
So it was a favor for you,
wasn't it?
MR. PANOSH: We object, please.
MR. HATFIELD: He objects to every question.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q
"Yes" or "No"?
A No, sir,
I don't believe it was a personal favor.
Q Now, Dr. Falwell said
yesterday that the reason he talked to you was because your sister
is very close to his
1515
daughter; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q
So it was a favor, wasn't it?
A I can't really begin to guess why they helped me
out. All I can say is that they helped me and that I appreciated it.
Q Now,
there's no record that you know of, of whatever it is that you told
Mr. Falwell and Mr. Yeatts on that first meeting, is there? There's
no written record?
A Excuse
me, sir. Which Mr. Falwell?
Q
The young Mr. Falwell, the one that's
a lawyer. A Yes, sir. I'm not sure if they took a record of that
or not.
Q
The only written record of what you
have had to say about Ronnie Kimble is the exhibit that you had in
front of you yesterday afternoon, that was a statement recorded by
Mr. Pendergrass on February 3rd; is that correct?
Q
A I really can't answer that,
sir, because as many times as I spoke with the investigators, I'm
not sure what records they took from what I said and what notes they
took. Q I didn't ask you what they knew. My question is, is there
any records that you personally know of, that's in writing, other
than this?
(Mr. Hatfield placed an exhibit on the witness stand
and indicated.)
1516
A Not to my personal knowledge.
Q
Okay. And is there any other writing
that has been shown to you, to help you refresh your memory, so that
you can testify accurately in this trial?
A Perhaps a
note -- perhaps some notes were reviewed from telephone
conversations and things of that nature. I have reviewed several
different papers, but I don't know about a -- I don't know what you
would classify them as, other than personal notes that they had
taken.
Q So you
have read the notes that Mr. Panosh took on July 21, 1998, when you
talked to him on the telephone, haven't you?
A Yes, sir,
I believe I have.
Q But you
haven't been given a copy of that?
A I believe
I was given a copy of this (Indicated) and I didn't keep it. I read
over it about once or so, and it makes me a little queasy to read
it, to be honest with you, sir, so I just never have read it again,
never paid a --
Q
So was --
A -- lot of
attention to it.
Q
-- it sent to you down in Arcadia,
Florida?
A No, sir.
Q
When did you read it?
A That
would have been last week, when I testified before the judge, in the
absence of the jury.
1517
Q So you remember testifying in
front of the judge in this courtroom on August 3, 1998?
A Yes, sir,
I do.
Q Have you been
shown a copy of your testimony on that date?
A No, sir.
Q
So other than your memory today,
August 20th, you have no other means of telling the jury anything
about what you said on August 3rd; is that correct?
A No, sir,
just my memory.
Q Just your memory. You haven't
looked at any writings pertaining to that?
A No, sir.
Q Are you
fully satisfied, looking back on August 3rd, that what you said on
that occasion was accurate and true and complete?
MR. PANOSH: Objection. Compound statement.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q Are you fully satisfied, looking
back on your testimony on August 3rd, that it was accurate?
A On August
3rd --
MR. PANOSH: Objection. He said
he hasn't gone over it.
MR. HATFIELD: Well, he can remember it. It's only
three weeks ago.
1518
THE COURT: Overruled.
A On August
3rd, when I gave my testimony before the judge, I recall the things
to the best of my memory, just as I have now.
Q But when you think back on
it now, was what you said then accurate?
THE COURT: He's answered.
Q Was it
true?
THE COURT: Objection sustained. He's
answered it.
Q Was it
complete?
A It -- I
can't recall everything that I said. All that I can say, sir, is
that I answered it to the best of my memory at that time.
Q Now, the meeting that took place
on February 3, 1997 consisted of five adults, plus yourself, didn't
it?
A Yes, sir.
Q There was you, Mr. Falwell, Jr.,
Mr. Patric Yeatts, Mr. Harold Pendergrass, Mr. James Church, and
Sergeant Deberry, am I right?
A Yes, sir,
that sounds accurate. And my wife also later on in the conversation.
Q So she
joined in that at some point; is that right?
A Yes, sir,
toward the end of that conversation, she did.
Q Was there
a stenographer there?
1519
A I'm not quite sure who that is, sir.
Q
Well, was there a person such as the
lady sitting before you, who was taking down some notes or shorthand
or otherwise recording it in some fashion?
A The
investigators and detectives were taking their own personal notes.
Q
So everybody had their pad out,
writing their notes down; is that right?
A To the
best of my memory.
Q Did Mr.
Falwell write notes?
A I don't
remember exactly what notes he wrote or if he was writing notes. I
would assume he did, but I can't be for sure that he did.
Q Well,
this is something that didn't happen too long ago, just February 3,
1997.
MR. PANOSH: Object. We'd like
questions, please.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q
Are you unable to remember who
took notes?
A I'm unable to remember exactly who did the
actual writing of the notes, because that's not something that would
stick out in your mind.
Q All
right. Do you know whether any kind of an audio tape was made of
that meeting?
A Not to
the best of my knowledge.
Q
Okay. Now, at that time, you had
two children, didn't
1520
you?
A Yes, sir,
I did.
Q
And one of your kids was a toddler; is
that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q
And that's a kid who played on the
chair after you and Ronnie assembled it; is that correct?
A I don't
remember anything about playing on a chair,
sir.
Q Now, you had
another child. How old was that other child?
A At that
time?
Q Yes, sir.
A At that
time, the other child was an infant.
Q Now, will you look at the exhibit
that you have in front of you, on the first page.
A Yes, sir.
Q Can you look down
to the next to the last paragraph, over on the right, it says, "Whidden
and his wife are the parents of one small female child," doesn't it?
A Well,
sir, that's --
Q
Excuse me. Does it say that?
A Yes, sir,
it does say that.
Q
That's inaccurate, isn't it?
A The record that I have is an accurate summary of
the basic tenets of what I told them, but it wasn't my actual
1521
verbatim word for word. If I may be allowed to give
an example. For example, they just didn't quote the exact words that
I said during the course of this interview. They wrote down -- we
were interviewed for a long period of time, and I said a lot more
than is in here. It wasn't the exact quotations of everything I
said, sir.
Q
There's five adults sitting in
there, every one of them highly educated, two lawyers, two
detectives, a sergeant of the sheriff's department, who's head of
homicide, and they're all taking notes --
MR. PANOSH: Object. No question.
Q -- and they can't even figure out how many
children you got?
MR. PANOSH: Object.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q
They got it wrong?
MR. PANOSH: Object.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q
Did they get it wrong because you got
it wrong or because they got it wrong?
A
Sir, I can't say why it's wrong,
except to say that I knew how many children I have. Q But now, on
the next page, when they wrote that on one occasion, Ronnie Kimble
told you the background facts, that was wrong, too, wasn't it?
1522
MR. PANOSH: Object. Asked and answered.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
A Actually,
sir, that appears to be correct, to my reading of the statement. It
appears that they're referring to one specific occasion, and not one
occasion, period.
Q Five men,
all of them highly educated, all taking notes, you talking for
hours, and they conclude and put in their report that you saw Ronnie
on one occasion?
MR. PANOSH:
Object.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
Q And you
don't tell them that they've made a mistake, when you've reviewed
this thing, you don't notice that until I point it out to you, do
you?
A Well, again, sir, it doesn't
appear to be a mistake to me. Just the way I read it, it appears
that they're referring to one specific occasion.
Q Well, it
says, "After meeting Kimble," you said -First of all, let's look
back. It says, "Whidden stated Kimble's duties included the delivery
of requested supplies to each chaplain's office," doesn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Then it
says, "After meeting Kimble," would that refer to your making
Kimble's acquaintance? "After meeting Kimble" refers to you moving
from never having known him, to meeting him and knowing who he is;
isn't that right?
1523
A Sir, I can't -- I can't say exactly -- due to the
grammar structure and all, I can't -- I just can't say exactly what
they meant by what they wrote down, based --
Q Then --
A -- on
what I said.
Q Then you said, "he was befriended
by Kimble," and that truly did happen, didn't it?
A Well,
these are true statements, but they're not exactly what I said. For
example, I wouldn't have said I was befriended by Kimble. I probably
said me and Kimble became -- me and Ronnie Kimble became friends or
something of that nature. It's just a summary.
Q And you
probably wouldn't have said that on one occasion, he told you the
background facts of Patricia's death, you would have said on 15 or
20 occasions, he told you the background facts of Patricia's case,
wouldn't he?
MR. PANOSH:
Object to the question.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
MR. PANOSH: It's not in
evidence, Your Honor, nowhere.
MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, he testified yesterday it
could have been 15 --
THE COURT:
Overruled.
MR. HATFIELD:
-- or 20 times.
A Could you
please restate the question, sir.
1524
Q Yes. As you said, you wouldn't
have said that on one occasion, he told you the background facts of
Patricia's murder, you would have said on 15 or 20 occasions, he
told you the background facts of Patricia's murder, right?
A I may have said on one specific
occasion.
Q Okay. Now, looking down at the
large paragraph that is Paragraph Number 3 on Page 2 of your report.
Do you see the sentence "Kimble did not know where the gun was"?
A Yes, sir,
I do.
Q
Is that a true statement?
A Yes, sir. That was in reference to the second
conversation that we had. at Camp Lejeune.
Q
So you're saying that the five
highly-educated adults that were taking notes in this meeting wrote
down that you said, "Kimble did not know where the gun was," and
they were right; is that correct?
MR. PANOSH: We'd object, please.
Q
Is that accurate?
MR. PANOSH: We'd object. There's only one person
taking notes.
MR. HATFIELD: Well, let that person testify.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Proceed.
MR. HATFIELD: He says they were all taking notes.
THE COURT: Proceed.
1525
Q It's accurate, isn't it?
A That is what he told me.
Q
That's what you think he told you,
isn't it?
A No, sir.
That's what he told me.
Q He told
you that he didn't know where the gun was?
A Yes, sir. He told me that on the
second meeting.
Q
Don't you know he told you that he
thought she had been killed by his brother's gun, and that the gun
was found beside her body? Isn't that what he told you?
A I don't
recall him saying that.
Q When you
and Ronnie Kimble went upstairs in your house, he told you that he
was troubled by a dream, didn't he?
A Could you please restate the
question, sir.
Q
When you and Ronnie Kimble went
upstairs in your house, he told you that he was troubled by a dream,
didn't he?
A No, sir,
I don't recall that.
Q And he
told you that the dream had recurred and that there was something
about $20,000 in it; isn't that right?
A No, sir,
I don't recall that.
Q And don't
you know that Ronnie Kimble told you that his brother at some point
had made a public offer to pay a reward of $20,000 if anybody could
find out who had killed Patricia?
A He may have stated that to me,
but I do not recall it.
Q Now, at
no time in this world did Ronnie Kimble ever
1526
say anything to you about insurance money, did he?
A No, sir, he did not.
Q
So when you made reference to
insurance money yesterday in your testimony, that was simply in
error, wasn't it?
A Could you
please elaborate on the specific time that I made reference to that.
Q
In your direct examination, when
you said something about insurance money, that was not consistent
with what you actually know about this case, was it?
A I don't recall ever saying anything about
insurance money, sir.
Q But in
any event, you also don't recall Ronnie Kimble
MR. PANOSH: We object to "in any
event." Q You don't recall --
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q You don't recall Ronnie Kimble
saying anything to you about insurance, do you?
A No, sir,
he did not.
Q
And you also know to an absolute
certainty that Ronnie Kimble never received any money whatsoever in
consequence of Patricia's death; don't you know that?
A I do not
know that. All I know is what he told me at the time that we talked,
was that he had not received any money yet.
1527
Q Right. Well, then, why don't you know it? If he
told it to you, why don't you know it?
MR. PANOSH: Object to argument, please.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q You did know it, because he told it to you;
isn't that right?
A No, sir,
I don't recall him saying anything about insurance money.
Q You also
don't recall him saying anything about receiving any money
whatsoever, do you?
A I don't
recall him saying anything to me about receiving any money, except
to say that he said he would receive some money from his brother.
Q The fact
is that Ronnie Kimble and his wife, Kim, and you and your wife,
Debra, were both young Marines who had joined the Marine Corps right
out of high school, and neither one of you had any extra money, did
you?
A I can't
be aware of their financial status. I know that we did not have any
extra money.
Q You and
your wife had no extra money whatsoever, did you?
A No, sir, we didn't.
Q And as far as you know, there was no extra money
in the Kimble family, either?
MR. PANOSH: It's been answered, please, Your
1528
Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained. He's answered.
Q They had a vehicle and you had a vehicle, right?
A Yes, sir.
Q In fact, part of the reason that
you offered them accommodations in your house is, because you knew
that it was costly to go and stay in motels when you're traveling
out on the road, right?
A It was
more of just a courtesy, sir.
Q Now, do you remember telling
Ronnie Kimble about a dream that you had had?
A No, sir,
I do not.
Q Don't you recall telling Ronnie
Kimble about a dream where a man had been abusive to a child?
A Yes, sir,
I did tell him -- I don't know if -- I must have told him about it,
because I do remember having a dream about that.
Q All right. Tell the jury
about the dream where the man was abusive to the child.
MR. PANOSH: Object.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A I had a
dream -- I had a dream one evening about a man that was abusive to a
child. And I must have told Ronnie Kimble about that dream. It woke
me up in the middle of the night. I was in tears over it. And I then
went down and I
1529
prayed for that child the rest of the morning. And it
was -- it was a very heart-wrenching dream. It was just very
realistic and very vivid. And I prayed for that child. That's about
all I can say about that, sir.
Q And then a day or so later, you saw something in
the newspaper, didn't you?
A I don't
recall seeing anything in the newspaper, sir.
Q Don't you remember that you saw
that that man had passed away, you read it in the paper?
A No, sir,
I don't recall that at all.
Q Do you
recall telling Ronnie Kimble that?
A No, sir,
I do not.
Q Now,
looking at your statement of February 3rd, at Page 3, Paragraph 2,
you told the five gentlemen, while you were sitting in the lawyer's
office that following your conversation with Kimble, that you were
concerned; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q It says
that. Is that the word you used?
A I don't
know the exact word I used. I know I expressed to the detectives
that I was concerned for my family's safety and also for Ronnie
Kimble's, because he had expressed to me that he was suicidal.
Q So,
whoever wrote that, their description of your state of mind was
concerned, that would be reasonably accurate?
1530
A Yes, sir. I was concerned.
Q
All right. You heard Jerry Falwell
testify yesterday in these proceedings that he saw you right after
-- the next day, after Ronnie Kimble had left, didn't he?
A Yes, sir,
he did see me.
Q And on that
occasion, that would have been Saturday, the 25th of January, 1997,
wouldn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And would it be consistent with
your recollection that there was a basketball game that day?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was that Liberty
University's team playing some other team?
A Yes, sir.
Q
Who was the other team?
A I don't
know. I didn't pay any attention to the game.
Q All right. Liberty
University is much more than just the Bible Institute, isn't it?
A Yes, sir,
it is.
Q In fact,
the Bible Institute's just one small branch of a very comprehensive
university; am I right about that?
A Yes, sir,
you are.
Q
And the student population of the
university as a whole is probably eight or nine thousand students;
is that right?
Q
A I'm not sure what the
population is.
1531
Q You didn't -- no one ever told
you how big the school you were going to was?
A I don't
remember -- I don't recall how big it was.
Q
How many people attended the Bible
Institute?
A It was
about 200 of us.
Q 200?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is the
Bible Institute in any way separated from the university?
A It's part
of the university, yet it's a separate entity from the university,
also.
Q As a
Bible Institute student, do you have the full privileges that every
other student in the university has to use all the facilities in the
university?
A
Basically, yes, sir.
Q
Sir?
A
Basically, yes, sir.
Q
All right. Now, what time was
that base-- I'm sorry. What time was that basketball game?
A I don't
recall what time the game was, sir. It was sometime after dark. We
never got involved much in sports, so--
Q It was a
nighttime game?
A Yes, it
was.
Q It was
not an afternoon game?
1532
A I'm not sure if it was -- it may have started in
the afternoon and led into the night, but I do recall leaving the
basketball game after dark.
Q
So after you had finished talking to
Dr. Falwell at the game and going outside, it was dark?
A Yes, sir.
Q
What was the weather like?
A It was --
it was clear.
Q Was it
cold?
A I believe
it was a little chilly.
Q What time
did you arise on that morning?
A I don't
recall what time we arose the next morning.
Q
Do you have a clock in your
bedroom?
A We didn't -- Excuse me, sir. Which morning are
you referring to?
Q Talking
about Saturday morning.
A Saturday
morning?
Q Yes, sir.
Talking about Saturday morning, January 25, 1997. Would you like me
to show you this calendar? It doesn't have any notes on it. Would
that help you?
A That's
okay. I have a calender, if I need to refer to it. It has the right
--
Q
All right. Does that have -- is
that January of 1997?
Q
A Yes, sir, it is. Yes, sir.
Q
All right. So are we
talking -- are we on the same
1533
page? Is it January 25, 1997 --
A Yes, sir.
Q
-- that we're talking about?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you
don't know what time you arose in the morning?
A I didn't arise that morning. I was -- I was
awake all night.
Q Didn't
sleep all night?
A Yes, sir.
Q Not a
drop?
A No, sir.
Q So what time was it when
you finally came out of your room, met with the Kimbles?
A I don't remember what time I came out of my
room. I came out -- I came out of my room around daylight, and I
then waited downstairs for the --
Q Did you
--
A Kimbles
to wake up.
Q
Did you drink any coffee?
A I don't
recall, but I don't believe I did.
Q Just sat
downstairs?
A Yes, sir.
I believe I sat downstairs. I may have -- I may have read my Bible
some. I don't recall.
Q
Did you read the book of
Ecclesiastes?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
1534
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q Did you
read the book of Leviticus?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q As a
matter of fact, you have stated that it was because of things
written in the book of Leviticus that you have decided to tell
people what you think Ronnie Kimble said to you that day; isn't that
right?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
A No, sir --
THE COURT: Overruled.
A -- it's
not.
Q Isn't it
because of passages in Leviticus --
A No, sir.
Q -- that
you feel mandate what you're doing?
A Well,
sir, if I may be allowed to explain myself.
Q First,
could you answer, before you explain?
A I don't really know how to answer
that question, without a statement, sir.
Q All
right.
A I was --
I was troubled about turning in Ronnie Kimble, but I felt I had to,
and I did. And at a later date, after I had turned him in, and after
I had talked to the police, when I had already left the state, I
came across a passage -- a passage of scripture in Leviticus 5,
Verses 1 through
1535
5, that state that if someone tells you something, or
if you are a witness to something, that according to the scripture,
I would be obligated, according to the scripture and my belief in
the scripture, I would be obligated to tell it. And that made me --
that made me feel much better about what I had done, in telling what
Ronnie Kimble had told me.
Q When did you find the passage in
Leviticus? Do you remember the date?
A No, sir,
I don't remember the date. I just recall -well, I recall it was
probably within a month of when I came down to Florida, but I can't
be for sure about that. I can just say that I know it was sometime
after I'd already moved down to Florida.
Q Okay. So you did -- you
weren't familiar with Leviticus 5 while you were in Lynchburg,
Virginia?
MR. PANOSH: Object, please.
Q
But you did --
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q -- become familiar with it later, when you went
down to Arcadia, Florida; is that right?
A Well, the
Bible being a very large book, you don't always remember everything
that you have read, and sometimes some of it will come back to you
when you're reading through it.
Q
Okay. Now, what did you -- after
-- what time did
1536
Ronnie and his wife awake on the morning of the 25th?
A I don't
recall. I know it was -- I would say it was sometime between 7:00
and 8:00 o'clock.
Q Did you
go up and knock on their door?
A I don't
recall.
Q Anyway, your
wife didn't get up, did she?
A No, she didn't get up till later.
Q
Till after they'd left, right?
A No, she
didn't get up till after they left.
Q And even
though you say you laid in bed and slept not one wink that whole
night, you didn't discuss any of your suspicions with your wife that
night, did you?
A No, sir.
Q So on the morning
of the 25th, you alone knew what Ronnie Kimble had indicated to you
the night before; isn't that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And once
Ronnie and his wife got up, how quickly did they manage to get their
things together and get out of your house?
A It didn't
take them long.
Q
Well, what time did they leave?
A I would
say they left some -- at some point between 7:00 a.m. and 8:30 a.m.
Q Do you
remember what the weather was like then?
1537
A No, sir, I do not.
Q
Do you remember what Ronnie Kimble
said to you about what his destination was that day?
A No, sir,
I do not.
Q Did he tell
you he was going back to Julian, North Carolina?
A I don't recall if he was going back there or
back to the base.
Q But he either was going to his
and Kim's residence in Julian, or to the base; isn't that right?
A I don't know where he was going. At that time, I
assumed that's where he was going.
Q But if you were afraid of him,
weren't you fairly concerned about where he was going?
A Well,
where he was going, at that time, in my mind, really did not have
much relevance, because I didn't know whether to believe anything he
had said to me about --
Q Well, why
--
A -- where
he was going.
Q
Then why did you believe what
he'd said to you when he was up in your room the night before, if
you didn't know whether to believe him or not?
MR. PANOSH: Object. That's not what he said.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q
You just got through saying that
that morning, as he
1538
was leaving, you didn't know whether to believe what
he said, didn't you?
A No, sir,
I didn't.
Q
You didn't just say that?
A What I
said was that I didn't know whether or not to believe where he said
he was going, he was actually going. I had --
Q
Well, you knew he was a Marine in good
standing and had to go back to his base, didn't you?
A I didn't
know when he had to go back to the base.
Q Well,
didn't you discuss anything with this guy during the days that he
was a house guest of yours?
A Yes, sir,
we did.
Q What did
you discuss?
A At what
point, sir?
Q Well, the
night that he arrived at your house, what did you and he talk about?
You hadn't seen each other in months. You had started Liberty
University in July. You'd been formerly separated from the Marine
Corps in the middle of August. You hadn't seen him since July, and
this is now January. That's six months. You hadn't seen him in six
months. What did you --
MR. PANOSH: Your Honor --
Q
-- talk about?
MR. PANOSH: -- we object. There's too many
1539
components to this one question.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. HATFIELD: Yes, sir. I'll make it real simple.
Q You hadn't seen him in six months, so what did
you and he talk about?
A Well,
sir, we probably discussed things that were going on at the
chaplain's office. I'm sure I would have asked him about that. But
to be honest with you, I do not remember the day-to-day
conversations and day-to-day actions that we had. All that I
remembered were the unusual things that would stick out in my mind,
because of the long period of time that it's been since this has
happened.
Q You
really can't remember anything he said that entire time he was at
your house, except what you say he said to you about Patricia's
death; isn't that right?
A I can remember a few
things. The things that would stick out in my mind as being unusual.
Q But you don't remember him telling you about the
sleep disorder evaluation at Portsmouth, do you?
A No, sir,
not particularly.
Q And you don't remember his
telling you what the duration of his leave from the Marine Corps
was, do you?
A No, sir,
I do not.
Q Now, he got to your house
on a Friday evening, didn't
1540
he? Look at your map -- or your calendar.
A Yes, sir.
Q
Did you know where he'd been earlier that day?
A Excuse me.
Q
Thursday evening. I'm --
A Thursday
evening.
Q
I didn't mean to mislead you.
A Yes, sir.
Q He got to your house on Thursday
evening, didn't he?
A Yes, sir.
Q
And that was the 23rd of January?
A Yes, sir.
Q Well, when he got there,
did you know where he'd been that morning?
A I'm sure I did at the time, but as I said, I
didn't remember the details of day-to-day conversation. All that
remembered was the unusual circumstances and unusual things that --
Q Do you
remember --
A -- he
would say to me.
Q
-- any of the things you talked
about with him when you and he went to see some classes at Liberty
Bible Institute the following day?
A Yes, sir. We discussed basically the work of the
ministry and things of that very general nature, and the
1541
classes that he would be sitting in on.
Q
So what did he tell you about
what had been going on at the chaplain's office down at Lejeune the
previous six months?
A I don't remember, sir. All I remember is, that
I'm sure I would have asked him how things were going, how -just in
a general sense, how people were doing that I used to work with and
--
Q
Who were --
A -- things
of that nature.
Q -- some
of the people that you would have been curious about?
A The
chaplain that I worked for.
Q Who was
that?
A Chaplain
Jim Asher.
Q Did you
ask Ronnie about him?
A More than
likely.
Q You don't
remember that?
A No, sir,
I do not.
Q Did
Ronnie update you on any information about Chaplain Asher?
THE COURT: Well, objection sustained.
Move along, Mr. Hatfield.
Q
All right. Who else did he mention?
A I don't
remember, sir.
1542
Q Do you -- can you even remember
anybody that you knew at the chaplain's office that Ronnie also
knew?
A Yes, sir.
Q
Who?
A I remember faces better than I remember names. I
remember Chaplain Asher. I remember Chaplain Prince.
Q
Do you remember Chaplain Soutiere?
A If I'm
not mistaken, Chaplain Soutiere was a Catholic chaplain there.
Q
Did you know him?
A I believe
I spoke with him on one occasion, to ask him information about the
Catholic Church. I was very curious as to their beliefs.
Q Because
that's where the Apocrypha is found; isn't that right?
MR. PANOSH: Object, please.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. HATFIELD: This is relevant, Your Honor, and I'd
like to be able to show how it is relevant.
THE COURT: Well --
MR. HATFIELD: This is cross-examination.
THE COURT: -- I'll allow you to proceed, if you can
make --
MR. HATFIELD: This is the only witness he has.
THE COURT: Go on and ask your question, sir.
1543
MR. PANOSH: We'd ask that the comments of counsel be
stricken, about what --
MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, I object to the insincere
objection.
THE COURT: Both of you remember what I told you at
the bench.
Proceed.
Q Do you
remember Natalie Kelly?
A No, sir.
That name does not ring a bell.
Q Did you have an interest in
learning about the Apocrypha?
A Yes, sir,
I did.
Q And the
Apocrypha --
MR. PANOSH:
We'd ask for a voir dire.
MR. HATFIELD:
Judge, this is relevant.
THE COURT:
Well, I don't know what --
MR. HATFIELD:
This is relevant.
THE COURT: Wait just a minute,
sir. He's asked for a voir dire.
Step out, members of the jury, please. Remember the
instructions.
Approach the
bench.
(The jury left
the courtroom at 10:14 a.m.)
(The following
proceedings were had by the Court and all three counsel at the
bench, out of the hearing of the jury.)
1544
THE COURT: What's this all about?
MR. PANOSH: I have no idea. We've asked for and been
granted reciprocal discovery, and we haven't gotten anything.
MR. HATFIELD: I am not going to tell him my strategy.
THE COURT: I
want to know what the relevancy is.
MR. HATFIELD: Because he discussed it
with the defendant, and the defendant's charged with first-degree in
a death penalty case. That's why.
THE COURT:
Discussed what? Who did?
MR. HATFIELD:
The Apocrypha.
THE COURT: Who discussed the
Apocrypha? MR. HATFIELD: That guy. The witness.
THE COURT:
With who?
MR. HATFIELD:
With the defendant.
THE COURT: You may ask him that, but
how -MR. HATFIELD: Thank you. That's what I was doing, before the
objection.
THE COURT: How
is it relevant, the other part?
MR. HATFIELD: Because it shows memory
and it shows relationship. And it shows what we're trying to -This
is the only witness they've got. Can I just cross-examine him, Your
Honor, please?
THE COURT: I'm
letting you do that, but I want
1545
you to move along with it. If it's relevant.
MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, as you can tell, I have
meticulous notes, which I am using, which I stayed up half the night
writing. And I feel like, without these incessant, insincere --
THE COURT:
Don't --
MR. HATFIELD: -- and obstructive
objections –
THE COURT: Don't get into that now. I've already
warned both of you about that, personalities.
MR. HATFIELD: I haven't talked about him.
THE COURT: You started --
MR. HATFIELD:
I don't even know him.
THE COURT: You're talking at the
bench. Let's move along. If you want to get this thing in today, we
got to move along. But I'll let him ask those questions.
MR. HATFIELD:
Thank you.
MR. PANOSH: Your Honor, I think
that as long as the jury's out -- I still don't see any relevance –
THE COURT: Well --
MR. PANOSH: -- but as long as the jury's out, we'd
ask for an inquiry.
MR. HATFIELD:
I object.
MR. PANOSH: I have to admit, I have no
idea what the Apocrypha is.
MR. HATFIELD:
Well, he's -- you're a Catholic.
1546
MR. PANOSH: Thank you for pointing that out. And I
don't think that's appropriate.
MR. HATFIELD: Sorry. I didn't know your religion was
irrelevant.
THE COURT: Here. Stop. I'll let you pursue it, as
long as you make it relevant.
MR. HATFIELD:
Thank you, Your Honor.
(Proceedings
continued in open court.)
THE COURT:
Bring them back.
(The jury
entered the courtroom at 10:17 a.m.)
THE COURT: You may continue with the
cross-examination --
MR. HATFIELD:
Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: --
Mr. Hatfield.
MR. HATFIELD:
Thank you very much.
Q So you were curious about the
Apocrypha; is that correct?
A I'm sure
I would have been.
Q And you discussed
the Apocrypha with Ronnie Kimble, didn't you?
A I don't
recall discussing that with Ronnie Kimble.
Q But you
recall registering some curiosity about what the Apocrypha was,
isn't that so?
Q A Yes, sir, I was --
Q
Do you remember --
1547
A -- curious about that.
Q
Sir?
A Yes, sir,
I was very curious about the Apocrypha.
Q
And do you remember Ronnie -- your
telling Ronnie Kimble that you had learned some things about the
Apocrypha, and his telling you that he would like to know what you
learned? Do you remember that?
A No, sir,
I do not.
Q And you
don't remember telling Ronnie Kimble some things that you had
learned from the books of the Apocrypha; is that right?
A No, sir,
I do not.
Q Now, isn't
it a fact that the Apocrypha would not be normally found in the
Bibles that Southern Baptists use?
MR. PANOSH: We object.
MR. HATFIELD: I'll finish this --
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. HATFIELD: -- in just a minute.
THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer, sir.
Q Isn't
that right, sir?
A Yes, sir,
it's not found in the Southern Baptist --
Q But it is
--
A -- Bible.
Q -- it can
be found in certain Roman Catholic Bibles; is
1548
that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q So,
Chaplain Soutiere being a Roman Catholic would have had a Bible that
contained the Apocrypha; isn't that right?
A I'm sure
he would have.
Q Now, did you talk to Chaplain
Soutiere about the Apocrypha?
MR. PANOSH: We
object.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
A What I --
MR. PANOSH:
Your Honor, this is --
A -- remember talking to
Chaplain Soutiere about –
MR. PANOSH: Your Honor, there is a privilege.
MR. HATFIELD: This is not a privilege. The guy
isn't even
--
THE COURT:
Overruled.
MR. HATFIELD: This is not a
Roman Catholic.
THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.
Answer the
question, sir.
A I
remember talking -- what I -- the subject that I remember discussing
with Chaplain Soutiere, the only subject that I remember discussing
with him, was the origin of the Roman Catholic Church and a few of
their beliefs and the origin of their church and where Southern
Baptist came into play at.
1549
Q Now --
A That was basically all I remember of talking
with him.
Q All right. After the latter days
of January of 1997, did you at any other time study the Apocrypha?
MR. PANOSH:
Objection.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
MR. HATFIELD:
Won't take but a minute.
THE COURT:
Overruled.
A I haven't studied the Apocrypha
in depth. I've studied what the Apocrypha is and the basic thoughts
of what the Apocrypha are.
Q
All right. Prior to Ronnie's visit to
your house, you had begun to study the Apocrypha, right?
A No, sir,
I haven't studied the Apocrypha, in the sense that I've studied the
Bible and I've studied books of the Bible that as Southern Baptists
we use. I have not studied the books of the Apocrypha. I've studied
what the Apocrypha is, and that's basically it.
Q But you have
looked into it before Ronnie Kimble went up to your house; isn't
that right?
A Yes, sir,
I'm sure I have.
Q And you haven't
really looked into it since then, have you?
A Yes, sir,
I have.
Q You have
continued to look into it; is that right?
1550
A Yes, sir, I have.
Q But you can't recall any
discussions that you and Ronnie had about the Apocrypha; is that
right?
A No, sir,
I can't recall that.
Q Okay. Now, you were terrified on
the morning of January 25th, according to your testimony?
A I was
terrified for my family.
Q
And yet, while Ronnie Kimble was still
upstairs in your house, you just went downstairs and sat in the
living room; is that right?
A Yes, sir,
I did go downstairs.
Q Now, did
you call your sister in Richmond, Virginia?
A Yes, sir,
I did.
Q Did you call her that morning,
before Ronnie and Kim got up?
A No, sir,
I didn't. I called her after they left.
Q All right. So you
didn't notify your sister of your terror and your need for a gun
that morning, did you?
A I
notified her that morning after they left.
Q After
they left. And before Debra asked you if Ronnie had confessed murder
to you?
A No, I
believe it was after that, also, sir.
Q So you
and Debra now -- the both of you -- you and your spouse are talking
about this business freely among yourselves; isn't that right?
1551
A Yes, sir.
Q
And so, then you called your sister?
A Yes, sir.
Q
What time did you call her?
A I don't
recall the time.
Q
Did you remember whether it was before
lunch or after lunch?
A No, sir,
I don't, because if I recall correctly, we didn't eat that day. Both
my wife and I have a tendency not to eat when we're very nervous or
very -- nervous.
Q
But your wife had another reason for
not eating, didn't she?
A That's
the only reason I know of.
Q
Well, she was pretty sick, too, wasn't
she?
A Yes, sir,
she was sick from the pregnancy.
Q
She was so sick, she'd lost
consciousness the night before, in the presence of both Ronnie and
Kim; isn't that right?
A Yes, she did. What happened was, she was
pregnant, she was low on blood sugar, she was also anemic, and she
did lay down and she did lose consciousness for a short period of _
time. And I didn't feel that -- the reason I haven't
mentioned that
previous to now was because I just didn't feel that that -- my
wife's health was relevant.
Q
So when you were sitting with
the five educated men on
1552
February 3rd, telling them the story, you just
completely left out the fact that your wife had passed out the night
before; isn't that right?
A No, sir.
I'm sure I told them that. But apparently they did not feel it was
relevant, either --
Q So --
A -- or
they would have written it down.
Q So this
written document that you've got in front of you is really just what
they think is important and relevant, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And it
wasn't relevant that your wife passed out in the presence of Ronnie
and Kim the night before, was it?
A I don't
feel so.
Q Did you
feel that it was relevant that Ronnie Kimble carried your wife
upstairs while she was still in an unconscious state?
A What
happened was, Ronnie Kimble helped me, assisted me to carry my wife
up the stairs. That was very distressing to me. But I couldn't carry
her up the stairs alone, because of how narrow the stairway was, and
I needed help. It was very distressing to me, but I was actually
very glad, I thought it was for the best, because I knew that my
wife can tell when I was upset, and I knew my wife would not have
been able to deal with it, as I was able to deal with it,
1553
and wait until morning. And I was very glad that this
had happened, even though I was concerned for her health, because I
did not want her aware of that that night, because I was afraid she
would not be able to control herself, in that she would be very
upset, and that would in turn upset Ronnie Kimble, and he may become
violent.
Q He might
become violent, when he -- in fact what he was doing was, helping
you deal with your wife, who had lost consciousness?
A What I was saying, sir, was that
if he was aware that my wife knew, and my wife got upset about it,
that he might become violent.
Q This
violent murderer helped you deal with your wife's illness that
night, didn't he?
A Yes, sir.
Q And even
though she passed out, you didn't take her to the emergency room or
call a doctor or anything, did you?
A His
suggestion to me was that they could stay with the children, while I
took her to the hospital. And there was no way I was going to leave
him there with the children. And my wife had had these spells in the
past, where she had become very dizzy and had to lay down. The
doctors had told her it was because of her low blood sugar and
things of that nature. So I knew she would be okay. And not only
that, we had no money, any way to take her to the doctor, or
1554
insurance.
Q But you
would have had the university health insurance that every other
student of the 8,000 students at Liberty University has, Mr. Whidden.
A Those
health services, you have to pay for those health services, just as
you would a normal doctor, and I don't believe they're available 24
hours a day.
Q Now, this
was the beginning of your second semester of your first year at the
Bible Institute; isn't that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q You were
very familiar with the practices and the procedures of the school,
because you had already completed an entire semester there, hadn't
you?
A No, sir.
I was familiar with the Bible Institute's. I never really got that
much involved with the university.
Q But
didn't you tell me a few minutes ago that the Institute students
have the same benefits as the university students?
A Yes, sir. But the
particular benefits never did actually interest me to take an
interest and notice into what all those benefits were.
Q Now, did you tell the five educated men -
MR. PANOSH: We would object.
THE COURT: Well, sustained.
Disregard that comment, members of the jury.
1555
Q Did you tell the two lawyers, the homicide
sergeant, the SBI agent, and the lead investigator of this
first-degree murder case, who were all assembled in an office with
you, this story that you have now told the jury, about your wife
literally passing out, and Ronnie Kimble helping you to do what you
could not have done by yourself and carry her upstairs? Did you tell
those men that story?
A I know that I told those men that story. I don't
recall exactly which visit that I told them that in.
Q All
right.
A Although
I have mentioned it to them at some point.
Q But if you look at the exhibit
that you have before you, there's not a trace of that story in it,
is there?
A Not that
I see, sir.
Q Now, of
course, you also told those gentlemen the story of your terror of
Ronnie Kimble, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q But you
had a perfect opportunity to get rid of Ronnie Kimble, because you
could have said, "I've got to take my wife to the emergency room.
I'll just take these kids with me. And you and Kim, get in your car
and go to a motel or go home, because I want to lock this house"?
A Yes, sir.
I wish I would have thought of that at that time.
Q The fact
is, you weren't the least bit afraid of Ronnie
1556
Kimble that night, and you were very grateful for the
help he was able to give you; isn't that right?
A No, sir,
that's untrue.
Q And the fact
is, that that motel you claim you checked in the next night cost
more than it would have cost to take your wife to the emergency
room; isn't that right?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A I can't begin to estimate what the cost would
have been at the emergency room.
Q Well, could you estimate the cost
of that motel room, by looking at the receipt?
A If I'm
not mistaken, it was around $90 --
Q You don't
remember, do you?
A --
altogether.
(Time was allowed for the witness.)
A It
appears that it was $75. I believe the --
Q
$90, $75, who paid it?
A We paid
it.
Q Well, you could have paid
an emergency room visit.
THE COURT: Well, you're arguing with him -
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: -- Mr. Hatfield. Objection sustained.
Q
The fact is --
THE COURT: Move along.
1557
Q -- on the night of the 24th of
January, you chose not to pay an emergency room visit bill, did you,
if you really had to pay one?
MR. PANOSH: We
object.
Q
But the next night, when Ronnie Kimble
was in Julian, North Carolina, you chose to go and check in a motel;
isn't that right?
A Yes, sir,
I did go check in a motel room.
Q And
again, without looking at that receipt, you couldn't remember to
within $15 of how much that motel room cost, could you?
A What
happened was, we had had a certain amount of money in the bank at
that time that we had to live off of. We were concerned about money.
But at the time, when I saw how fearful and how frightened my wife
was, at that point, would have done anything to get a hotel, because
of how frightened she was, in looking after my family.
Q Why
didn't you take her to the emergency room the next day, after the
Kimbles had gone down to Julian?
MR. PANOSH:
Objection, please.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
We've been
over it. He's answered. Move on.
Q The fact is that
the decision to go to the motel was your sister's advice, wasn't it?
A I'm quite
sure that my sister and my wife and I sat
1558
around and discussed it, and that's the conclusion
that we came to, together.
Q
So you didn't decide to go to a
motel until your sister had driven from Richmond, Virginia to
Lynchburg, Virginia; is that right?
A I don't recall the exact time that we decided to
stay in the motel.
Q Do you recall your sister -- you called her in
Richmond, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q What's the
distance between Richmond and Lynchburg?
A I'm not sure how many miles. I
know it takes approximately two to two and a half hours to drive
that distance.
Q And your wife -- your sister got
in the car and drove down; is that right?
A Yes, sir,
with a friend.
Q With
what?
A Yes, sir,
with a friend.
Q With a
friend. And with a gun?
A Yes, sir.
Q
And the gun was for you; is that
right?
A Yes, sir.
Q
So that you could protect
yourself against a Marine who was heading back to the Marine base?
1559
MR. PANOSH: Object, please. Argument.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
Q
What was your purpose in --
MR. HATFIELD:
Argument?
Q
What was your purpose in having
the gun?
A In case Ronnie Kimble got to thinking about me
being the only one he had told, and got upset about that and wanted
to come back and harm my wife and I.
Q Ronnie Kimble didn't even know
you thought he'd killed Patricia, did he? When he left your house
that morning, he had no idea that you thought he had killed
Patricia, did he?
A He knew that. I mean --
Q You completely --
A -- that's
the reason he left.
Q
-- dissembled --
MR. PANOSH:
May he finish?
THE COURT:
Wait just a minute.
Q Did you
have more to say?
A He knew -- he knew that he had
told me, and he knew that's the reason he had to leave when he left.
Q Well, you
had a perfect way to have him leave, because your wife was passed
out and you needed to take her to an emergency room, and you didn't
use that as an opportunity to have him leave.
MR. PANOSH:
Objection.
1560
Q He didn't know he had to leave,
did he?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
We've been over that, Mr. Hatfield. Move along.
Q
The fact is, you and Ronnie Kimble,
according to your statements, agreed while you were upstairs in your
bedroom that you wouldn't let the wives know what you'd been talking
about; isn't that right?
A Yes, sir,
we did.
Q Because that's what you said in
the statement, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q
And so, you and Ronnie Kimble, after
you agreed that you were going to go down and look at the weather
report, to see whether Ronnie should leave -- that's what you told
the officers, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q You went down and
looked at the weather report, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what did
you find out when you were looking at the weather report?
A I forget what the exact weather was, but I do
remember that the weather did not -- was not relevant to him leaving
that night. The weather would not have been a good excuse
1561
for him to leave that night, in other words, to avoid
any bad weather --
Q
So --
A -- in
traveling.
Q
-- you and he had this agreement that
you were going to go down and check the weather, and according to
what the weather was, he was either going to stay or go; is that
right?
A Yes, sir.
Q So what
was the weather?
A The
weather was not going to be bad the next day or to some extent,
whatever the end result of what the weather was, was that it would
not be relevant to him leaving that night.
Q You don't
remember what the weather was, do you?
A No, sir,
I don't remember exactly what the weather was.
Q You don't
remember what the weather report said the weather was, do you? MR.
PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
He's answered that, sir.
Q You do not recall what you found out from seeing
the weather report, do you?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
A Yes, sir,
I do.
1562
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q What did
you find out?
A I found
out that he had no excuse to leave that night
Q Did you find out --
A -- due to
the weather.
Q -- that
it was --
THE COURT: Well, he's answered
it, sir. Move on.
MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, he said --
THE COURT: He's answered. He's said. He's told what
the weather was.
MR. HATFIELD: Request a voir dire. I'd like to put --
THE COURT: He's answered --
MR. HATFIELD: -- this on the record.
THE COURT: -- the question. Move along. Next
question.
Q Was it
sleeting?
THE COURT: He's been over it,
sir. He's answered that question. Move on.
Q You told the jury yesterday that you found out
the weather was nice, and therefore, he didn't have to leave; isn't
that right?
A I found out that the weather was not an excuse
for him to leave that night.
1563
Q But if the weather was nice, it
would have been fine for him to leave, wouldn't it?
MR. PANOSH: Object.
THE COURT: You're arguing with the witness, Mr.
Hatfield. He's answered the question. Move on, sir.
Q
If it was not sleeting and snowing,
then it would have been safe for Ronnie and Kim to get in their
vehicle and drive the hundred miles to Greensboro that night,
wouldn't it?
A I don't
recall exactly what the weather was.
Q Now, on February
3, 1997, when you met with the five gentlemen, had you decided at
that point in time that you were going to withdraw from school?
A I don't
remember exactly at what point I decided not to with-- decided --
Oh, actually, yes, sir, I do. Sorry.
Q Do you
remember?
A Yes, sir,
I do. I did decide at some point before that meeting that I would be
leaving school, because during that meeting, they asked me to help
them out, and I told them that I would not be around long enough to
do that, because I was moving out of the state and dropping out of
school.
Q So you
told them you were going to quit school?
A Yes.
Q
You told them you were going to
pull out of there, if they were going to try to make you be a
witness; isn't that
1564
right?
A Yes -- no, no, sir, that's not correct. Would
you please restate the question.
Q You told
them you were going to pull out of there, if they expected you to be
a witness in this case, didn't you?
A No, sir,
I didn't tell them that.
Q Well,
then, can you explain why in Paragraph 3 of that statement, Mr.
Pendergrass wrote, "Whidden stated he is currently attending Liberty
University and is planning to enter the ministry following
graduation"?
A Could you
please say what page and paragraph, sir.
Q Yes, sir. That's Page 1, third
paragraph, first sentence.
A That
appears to be -- again, this is just a summary of what I said, not
my exact words, but what it appears to be was, me giving them my
plan for attending the university and - going into the ministry
afterwards.
Q So they
wrote that you were currently expected to graduate, but the fact is
that you told them you were going to pull out of school, if they
wanted to make you a witness; isn't that right?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A No, sir,
I never told them that I would not be a witness. All I told them was
that I would not wear a wire
1565
and/or a tape recording device. And I told them that
I would be -- I told them that I would finish school and go into the
ministry afterwards, but I would have to come back to do that --
Q Well,
now, you know, sir --
A -- after
they were in jail.
Q Okay. You know that there's
not one word in the February 3rd statement about wearing a wire,
whether you wanted to or not, is there?
A No, sir. This is a statement of -- this is a
summary of what I said, not a summary of what they had asked me to
do.
Q But you
just told the jury that you were talking to them about quitting
school being put in the report, talking about -- to them about not
wearing a wire, which they didn't put in the report. They put
nothing in the report about whether you were willing to wear a wire
or not, did they?
A I don't
see anything in there about that.
Q And they
also put nothing in there about you having any substantial fear of
Ronnie Kimble, did they?
A I would
have to read over all of it, to actually say that they never said
that that's not in the statement. If you'd like me to read over the
statement, I can do that.
Q Well, I
thought you read it over before you testified. Isn't that what you
told us earlier?
1566
A Yes, sir, I did, but I don't remember the entire
statement verbatim.
Q There's nothing in there about
you being distraught, either, is there?
A Again,
I'd have to reread the whole statement, to --
Q
You heard Dr. Falwell describe your
appearance when he saw you as distraught, didn't you?
A Yes, sir,
he did.
Q Is that -- was that an accurate
description by Mr. Falwell?
A Yes, sir,
I believe it was.
Q
Well, now, your sister got down here
before you went to the basketball game, didn't she?
A Yes, sir.
Q So, by
the time you went to the basketball game, where was your gun?
A I don't
remember where we kept it.
Q
Did you take it to the game with you?
A I'm sure
I wouldn't have taken it in the game. It may have been in the
vehicle. I don't remember.
Q
Now, Dr. Falwell said it was difficult
for students to get to him when he was in the chancellor's box. Did
your sister go in there and help you get to Dr. Falwell?
A It was my
sister and her friend.
Q Did they
introduce you to Dr. Falwell?
1567
A They brought me to Dr. Falwell. We had already
been introduced, to the best of my memory.
Q
So, the reason Dr. Falwell talked to
you was because your sister accompanied you and helped you get right
up to him while the game was going on?
A My sister
and her friend.
Q Who was
Falwell's friend, your sister or her friend?
A Her
friend that helped me get there was Dr. Falwell's daughter.
Q So, the way you got to talk to
Dr. Falwell in the middle of the basketball game was, his own
daughter --
A Yes, sir.
Q --
brought the matter to his attention?
A What his
daughter told him, to the best of my memory, was that I needed to
speak with him about an urgent matter.
Q And Dr. Falwell
observed that you appeared to be distraught, didn't he?
A Yes, sir.
Q And after you told him the story,
he observed that it was a bizarre story, didn't he?
A Yes, sir,
he did.
Q
Well, tell us what you told him.
A I told
him, to the best of my memory, without trying to quote word for word
what I told him, I told him that Ronnie Kimble had confessed to
murder to me, that he had killed his
1568
sister-in-law, and that he had did it for money, his
brother paid him to do it, and that it was the same man that had
spoken with him the day prior.
Q
Now, when you spoke to Dr. Falwell and
told him this story, he didn't understand who you were really
talking about, did he?
A I can't
be sure. I know that I explained to him who it was. I can't be sure
as to what -- I can't be sure as to what his recollection of that
was.
Q First, he knew you were talking
about murder; isn't that right?
A I don't
remember whether I told him names first or events first. I can't
recall the chronology that I talked to him in. I just know that I
told him both names and events.
Q
Isn't it a fact that he had to
ask you some questions, in order to clarify in his own mind who you
were talking about?
A Not that I recall. I believe I stated that to
him, explained to him who it was.
Q So, do you think that he
immediately understood that you were talking about his old friend,
Ron Kimble's –
Q MR. PANOSH: Objection.
Q -- sons?
THE COURT: Sustained to the form
of the question.
1569
Q You knew way before any of this happened that
Ronnie Kimble had a substantial connection to Liberty Bible
Institute, didn't you?
MR. PANOSH: Objection. Which Ronnie?
THE COURT: Overruled, if he knows.
A I knew
that he had a connection from the Bible Institute, because he told
me that that's where his father went to school.
Q Right.
Ronnie, who's seated beside me, told you his dad went to Liberty
Bible Institute, right?
A Yes, sir.
Q You knew
that, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q You knew it before Kim and Ronnie
came up to your house?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you
knew that from talking to Ronnie, that Dr. Falwell had consecrated
Ronnie's dad's church down here in North Carolina, didn't you?
A I don't
recall whether I knew that at that time or not.
Q Well, you knew Ron, Sr. had taken
a certificate and finished the Bible Institute, didn't you?
A All I
knew was that his father had went to the Bible Institute.
Q I mean,
that was something that was very similar about
1570
both you and Ronnie, not only were both of you
Marines, right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And both of you had spent some
time in the chaplain's office; that's correct, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And neither one of you really
wanted to make a career in the Marine Corps, right?
A No.
Q And both of you were very
interested in biblical studies; am I right about that?
A I was,
and I assume he was.
Q You knew
he was --
A He
expressed that interest to me.
Q On many
occasions, right?
A I
wouldn't use the term "many."
Q Well, it wasn't all shooting pool
and talking about Patricia's death, was it?
A No.
Q It was also talking about Bible
studies, talking about faith, talking about your future in the
ministry, and those kinds of things, right?
A I'm sure
it would have been.
Q The cement of your
friendship with Ronnie Kimble was your common devotion to the Lord,
your membership in the
1571
Southern Baptist faith, and your desire to be
ministers of the gospel; isn't that right?
A No, sir,
I wouldn't say that.
Q That's
not the cement that held you guys together?
A No, sir,
I wouldn't say that.
Q In any event, when you went up to
Dr. Falwell, to tell him what you believed Ronnie had told you, did
you make an effort for Dr. Falwell to understand which family you
were talking about?
A Yes, sir,
I believe I did.
Q And when you finally got that
idea across, he was horrified, wasn't he?
A I can't
say what his state of mind is. He deals with so much stress and
pressure every day, that he doesn't let things affect him overly. So
I can't state whether he was horrified or not. I don't know what his
mental state was at that time.
Q You saw
that he was shocked, wasn't he?
A Yes, sir,
he was shocked.
Q And when
he said you were conflicted yesterday, he was conflicted, too,
wasn't he?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q You saw that, didn't you? MR. PANOSH: Objection.
1572
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q
Based on your observations, and the
shock that you saw in his demeanor, you knew that he was conflicted,
too, didn't you?
A Again,
sir, I can't tell.
Q So he immediately told you to go
see the lawyers, right?
A Yes, sir,
he did.
Q Now, you
say that when you left the basketball game, it was dark?
A Yes, sir.
Q But you
met with the lawyers after the basketball game, didn't you?
A Yes, sir,
I did.
Q
Where did you meet with them?
A I met
with only one of the lawyers after the basketball game, and that was
actually in the -- in the -- in the basketball court there. Dr.
Falwell recommended that I talk to his son, and that we set up a
meeting, and that's what we intended to do. But it so happened that
he was available that night, so I was able to discuss it with him
then.
Q So you talked to
the lawyer Jerry Falwell, Jr. that night --
A Yes, sir,
I did.
Q -- in the
basketball arena?
1573
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Where did
you and he go?
A We
discussed it in the bleachers, after the game.
Q So the people are streaming
out of the basketball arena, and you and Jerry Falwell, Jr. are just
sitting in the bleacher, talking?
A No, sir. We discussed it after the basketball
game, when most of the people had already cleared out.
Q So the arena was basically empty, other than the
cleanup people?
A There was still a few lingering people, part of
the crowd. But basically, most of the people had left at that time,
to the best of my memory.
Q Did he
advise you that you should go to a motel?
A I don't
recall whether he advised that or not.
Q Do you
remember what he did advise you?
A Yes, sir.
He advised me that I take it very seriously. And he told me that he
would look into it and he would see who the -- what the next step
should be that we should take. Things of that nature.
Q Did he
recommend to you that you and your wife and your two children get in
your vehicle and immediately drive to Camp Lejeune, to locate Ronnie
Kimble?
A No, sir,
he did not.
Q But you
did, subsequent to talking to Dr. Falwell's
1574
son, in fact do exactly that, didn't you?
A Excuse
me, sir?
Q
After you talked to Jerry
Falwell's son, the lawyer,
you then put your family in your vehicle and drove to
the vicinity of Camp Lejeune and stayed with friends?
A Not
immediately.
Q
You didn't do that immediately?
A Not
immediately.
Q
Well, will you look at your calendar.
We do --
A Yes, sir.
Q -- agree,
don't we, that you were talking to Jerry Falwell, Jr. on Saturday,
January 25th, in the late evening hours, after a basketball game?
A Yes, sir,
that's correct.
Q And you didn't meet with any
lawyers again until the 3rd of February, did you?
A I don't
recall the exact date that I met with lawyers after that, but
February 3rd sounds accurate.
Q Well,
February the 3rd was a meeting in the offices of Falwell and Yeatts,
where the other gentleman whose name I've reiterated?
A Yes, sir.
Q
We all agree on that, don't we?
A Yes, sir.
Q
What I want to know from you is,
between the waning
1575
hours of the 25th of January, and the 3rd of
February, did you meet with either Falwell or Yeatts or any other
lawyers?
A I would speak with Jerry Falwell, Jr. and Patric
Yeatts over the phone, but not an official meeting.
Q Did you
tell either one of those gentlemen that it was your intention to put
your family in a vehicle and drive down to the vicinity of Camp
Lejeune, to meet with Ronnie Kimble?
A I don't
recall exactly telling them, but I'm quite sure I would have
notified them.
Q Well, you
know, I'm really not asking you about assumptions. I would like you
to use your memory, to tell facts. Did you meet with the lawyers --
MR. PANOSH: He's answered that.
Q -- between Saturday night at the arena and the 3rd,
when there was a big meeting in which your statement was written
down?
MR. PANOSH: Object, please.
THE COURT: You may answer again.
A I don't
recall whether we met after that or not.
Q Now,
let's be clear on something. Did you tell any of those lawyers that
you were going to go down to Camp Lejeune and see Ronnie?
A I can't
be clear on that.
Q But one
thing you did understand from talking to Jerry
1576
Falwell, sitting there in that arena, was that if you
had material evidence of a murder, that you would have to be a
witness in court; you understood that, didn't you?
A At that
point, when I --
Q Yes.
A -- discussed it with Dr. Falwell?
I wasn't -- I don't remember when I made that decision that I was --
and when I became aware that I knew that I would have to testify in
court. I don't remember when I became aware of that.
Q Well, by
the time you talked to Mr. Panosh on the telephone on July 21, 1998,
you told him you wanted the ball in your court, didn't you?
A Yes, sir,
I did.
Q What did
you mean by wanting the ball in your court?
A When we
spoke with the -- when I spoke with the investigators, when I spoke
with -- excuse me, not the investigators, when I spoke with the
lawyers, prior to the meetings that I had with the investigators, I
did speak with the lawyers in between then. And when I spoke with
them, I -- we discussed it, and basically said it was best -- it
would be best if, as he said, the ball remained in my court. And
that's why we reached an agreement on the statement, that stated
that they would be able to provide police protection for my family,
in the event I needed it, and that I would not have to compromise
the safety of my family, in
1577
the
event that I helped out the police.
Q But none
of that was discussed on February 3rd, was it? None of that?
A No, sir,
you're correct. We did have a meeting in between that time, because
that was discussed before that meeting.
Q So, when
was the meeting in between that time? It's Saturday night, you're
sitting in the arena with Jerry Falwell, Jr. When did you have the
next meeting?
A I can't
be dogmatic about the dates, but what I can say is that on Saturday
night, after we left, we went and got a hotel. On Monday, the 27th,
was -- had to have been sometime around the 27th, that we left to go
down to Jacksonville, North Carolina, to stay with friends. We came
back. I must have met with the detectives then -- or excuse me, with
the lawyers then, because my child's birthday was on February the
1st, and we went up to my sister's house and stayed in Richmond for
a couple of days, for birthday parties, came back, and then left for
Florida shortly thereafter.
Q After you
and Jerry Falwell, Jr. finished talking in the arena, did you go to
his office with him and meet with his partner, Patric Yeatts?
A Not
immediately after. Immediately after, we went to the hotel.
1578
Q What?
A
Immediately after, we went to the hotel.
Q
So you finished talking to Jerry
Falwell, Jr. in the arena?
A Yes, sir.
Q And that was the
first time you'd ever met Jerry Falwell, Jr.?
A Probably
was.
Q
Where was your sister?
A My sister
was probably with her friend, helping baby-sit the children,
something of that nature.
Q So you
and Jerry Falwell, Jr. were alone?
A If I'm
not mistaken, my wife was present. She was sort of in and out,
because of the children. She would have to baby-sit the children and
may not have been attentive to the whole conversations.
Q But it
wasn't a meeting in a lawyer's office, and nobody was taking any
notes, it was just a casual consultation between you and Jerry
Falwell, Jr.; isn't that right?
MR. PANOSH: Object to compound.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A That's
what it was the night of the 25th.
Q Then you
and Debra and your children went to the motel; is that right?
1579
A Yes, sir.
Q And you
don't recall whether Jerry Falwell, Jr. told you to go to a hotel or
whether your sister told you to go to a motel?
A No one
told us to go to a motel. It was a decision that we made together.
We discussed what the best thing is for us to do next. And somehow,
during those conversations, we came to the conclusion it would be
best for me and my family to go stay at a hotel, for our safety.
Q The next
morning was Sunday morning, wasn't it?
A Yes, sir,
it was.
Q Did you
go to Thomas Road?
A Yes, sir,
I did.
Q And how
long did the church services at Thomas Road last?
A They
generally last between 11:00 and 12:00.
Q Just an
hour?
A Yes.
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
A Sunday
school prior to that lasts longer, but if I'm not mistaken, we
didn't go to Sunday school that morning.
Q Now, it's
Sunday afternoon and you've been to Thomas Road. What did you do
then?
A I don't
recall. I know sometime between Sunday afternoon, after church, and
the 27th, Monday, we left for
1580
North Carolina.
Q
Where did you spend that night?
A At some
friends' house.
Q
Where was that located?
A That was
located approximately 30 minutes from the base.
Q So, are you saying
that on Sunday afternoon, you drove to Camp Lejeune?
A No, sir,
I'm not. I'm saying that sometime between Sunday afternoon and
Monday evening, we drove to Camp Lejeune.
Q But I'm
asking you specifically what you did Sunday afternoon.
A Yes, sir.
I can't recall that.
Q Did you talk to any lawyers
Sunday afternoon?
A I don't
recall that either. I don't --
Q Did you
--
A I don't
remember speaking with any lawyers Sunday afternoon, but I may have.
Q Just so
we can please move on, where did you spend Sunday night?
A I don't
recall whether we spent -- if I'm not mistaken, we spent Sunday
night at our home, because we couldn't really afford another night
at the motel.
Q Did you
at any time during that period on Sunday
1581
attempt to use a telephone to locate the whereabouts
of Ronnie Kimble?
A Not that
I recall.
Q You didn't call
Ronnie's in-laws, the Stumps, in Julian, and ask them if Ronnie had
passed through?
A Not that
I recall.
Q You didn't call the Marine base
and ask them if he had checked back in?
A Not that
I recall.
Q Well, back then, you would have been
able to remember the names of lots of people associated with the
chaplain's office, wouldn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Because that was just a few
months after you'd left the chaplain's office?
A Yes, sir.
Q Whereas now,
it's been 15 months and you can't remember anybody, right?
MR. PANOSH: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q
All right.
THE COURT: How much longer are you
going to be with this witness, sir?
MR. HATFIELD: Probably -- I don't
know, Your Honor
1582
THE COURT: Well, let's --
MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, I have
about five more pages.
THE COURT: All right. Well, let's
take the morning break.
Members of the jury, you may take the
morning recess. It'll be a 15-minute recess.
You may step down, Mr. Whidden.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Let me see the attorneys
at the bench a moment on an administrative matter.
(The witness left the witness stand.)
(The jury left the courtroom at 10:58
a.m.)
(All three counsel conferred with the
Court at the bench.) THE COURT: You may declare a 15-minute recess.
(A recess was taken at 11:00 a.m.)
(Court reconvened at 11:18 a.m. The
defendant was present. The jury was not present.)
THE COURT: Bring them back.
(The jury entered the courtroom at
11:18 a.m.)
THE COURT: The bailiff's informed me
one of the jurors is having a headache, due to the lights. Is that
you, Mrs. West?
JUROR NUMBER 1, MS. WEST: Oh, no.
(Juror Number 8, Ms. Scoggins, raised
her hand.)
1583
THE COURT: On the front row, Mrs.
Scoggins. Okay. Do whatever you need to do, ma'am. If you need to
wear dark glasses, to cut the --
MS. SCOGGINS:
Okay.
THE COURT: --
glare, that's fine. There'll be no problem with that. If you need to
close your eyes, you may do that. Just as long as you can keep
concentrating on the testimony.
MS. SCOGGINS: I just didn't want you
to think I was sleeping --
THE COURT:
Well, we --
MS.
SCOGGINS: during the trial.
THE COURT: --
want you to feel okay.
And again, members of
the jury, if we don't take breaks frequent enough, don't hesitate,
sit there and suffer. Just raise your hand and use a schoolgirl or
schoolboy system, just raise your hand, and I'll probably say,
"What's the problem?" and you can kindly step out a moment and take
care of it. So don't set there and be uncomfortable. If at any point
you need a short break, and I'm not taking it frequent enough for
you, just raise your hand, tell me you need to step out, and I'll be
glad to accommodate you.
Okay. Come
back to the witness stand, please, Mr.
1584
Whidden.
(The witness returned to the witness
stand.)
THE COURT: You may continue with cross-examination,
Mr. Hatfield.
MR. HATFIELD: All right. Thank you, Your Honor.
CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION by MR. HATFIELD:
Q Mr.
Whidden, you spent the night back in your apartment on Sunday night
and got up the next day; is that right?
A Yes, sir,
that's correct.
Q And the
next morning, did you and your wife and the two children drive down
to North Carolina?
A Actually,
my wife just refreshed my memory. We went to the doctor's that
morning. She had a doctor's appointment that morning.
Q And --
A And we
went to the doctor's first thing Monday morning.
Q Okay. Was
that her obstetrician?
A Yes, it
was.
Q She was expecting your third
child at that time; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And can
you tell us in what month she was in the period for the child?
MR. PANOSH: Object to relevance.
MR. HATFIELD: That's all I want to know.
THE COURT: Overruled.
1585
A I can't imagine her being more than a couple
months pregnant at that time.
Q Okay. She was pretty close to delivery time when
all this was happening; is that right?
MR. PANOSH:
Object.
A No, sir. I said --
THE COURT:
Sustained.
A -- that she was only --
Q She had only been pregnant a couple of months,
or she was a couple of months away from delivery?
MR. PANOSH: We object. This is not relevant.
THE COURT: Well, sustained.
MR. HATFIELD: It is relevant, because she passed out
two nights before, and I just wanted to find out what her state of
health was, without asking personal questions.
MR. PANOSH:
She'll take the witness stand.
MR. HATFIELD:
Judge, should I just change chairs?
THE COURT: Well, gentlemen, sit
down, pace yourselves, behave yourselves, and move along.
Q Can you just tell us what month of pregnancy she
was in?
MR. PANOSH:
Object, please.
THE COURT: Answer the question,
sir, if you know. A He was -- she was one to two months pregnant
at that time.
1586
Q Thank you. All right. After
seeing the doctor, what did you then do?
A After seeing the doctor, we then shortly
thereafter packed up our stuff and went down to North Carolina.
Q
What?
A We packed up our stuff and went down to North
Carolina.
Q Did you pack up enough stuff so
you wouldn't have to go back to that apartment?
A No, sir.
Just enough to stay a couple days.
Q And you visited
friends in the vicinity of Camp Lejeune; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, when you were
with these friends, did you tell the friends what you believed that
you'd found out from Ronnie Kimble?
A No, sir,
I did not.
Q You didn't share
your concerns with them at all; is that right?
A All I
said to them was that, a friend of ours was in a great deal of
trouble, and that I was -- that I had came down to talk to him, to
try to get him to do the right thing. And that's basically where we
left it.
Q All right. Now, before you left,
did you talk to Rick Buck?
A I don't
believe I talked with him before I left for
1587
North Carolina.
Q
Do you recall telling Rick Buck that
you had a friend in trouble?
A I don't
recall.
Q
In any event, you told your people --
your acquaintances down near Lejeune that you did have a friend in
trouble; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you
tell Dr. Wilmington that you were going down to Camp Lejeune?
A Not that
I recall. I believe at that point, I had not yet discussed it with
Dr. Wilmington.
Q
Now, the next day, did you get up and
pack your bags and leave those friends?
A What day
are you referring to, sir?
Q The day
-- the 28th, the day you went on the base at Camp Lejeune and
presumably met with Ronnie Kimble.
A We either left on the 28th, that
evening, or on the 29th, which was Wednesday. I do not recall which
day we left on.
Q But you
found -- later on, you found a receipt that appeared to indicate
that you'd been at Lejeune on the 28th of January, didn't you?
A I kept
the receipt that was required to get a pass into the base, if you
don't have the proper decal on your car.
1588
And I kept that receipt in my wallet.
Q
And the receipt says the 28th of
January, doesn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q So, since
you have --
A Or,
excuse me, sir. I'm mistaken on that. I have it here, and it's the
29th, actually, says. Yes, it does. It says the 29th. I had the
dates confused, sir.
(The witness
handed an exhibit to Mr. Hatfield.)
Q Could you
show me where it says the 29th. Well, wasn't it issued on the 28th?
A Oh, no, I'm mistaken. That must
have been the date that it was good through.
Q
Right.
A That must
have been the date that it was good through. What I saw on there was
the 28th.
Q All
right. So looking at the receipt --
MR. PANOSH: It has a red sticker
on it.
MR. HATFIELD: Oh, okay. Sorry. No, I don't see a red
sticker. Maybe it's on the envelope.
MR. PANOSH: On the envelope.
MR. HATFIELD: Okay.
Q
Showing what's been either
marked for identification or received into evidence as State's 120,
and looking at it, you can read that it was issued on the 28th; is
that correct?
1589
A Yes, that's correct.
Q
And expires on the 29th?
A Yes.
Q
Well, which day did you go there?
A I went
there on the 28th.
Q
Did you leave your friends' house and
pack up and go someplace else on the 29th, or did you go back and
see your friends again?
A I know
that I left -- I know that I left by the 29th.
Q Now, at
this point in time, you're down at Camp Lejeune, the only
conversation that you've had with any attorney at law was your short
conversation with Jerry Falwell, Jr. in the arena after the
basketball game, right?
A I can't
be sure of that. I met with the lawyers several times, and I can't
be sure of exactly the dates that we met on.
Q So you just can't tell us whether
you were down there at the direction of lawyers or whether you were
down there on your own?
A Yes, sir,
I can say that.
Q
What?
A I went
down on my own initiative, because I felt it was the right thing to
do.
Q
And the next day, did you and
your wife go to the base, or did you just go by yourself?
1590
A I went by myself.
Q
Did you take your gun?
A No, sir.
Q
Did you have your gun with you on this
trip?
A I'm sure
I would have brought it.
Q Well, do you
remember, sir?
A Yes, sir, I did bring it.
Q
So you carried a gun over state
lines. Did you have a permit for it?
MR. PANOSH: We object.
THE COURT: Well, sustained.
Q So, where
did you keep the gun?
A In my
vehicle.
Q
But you didn't take --
A And then
at the house, we took it out. I transported it down to my vehicle,
and then I left it at the house with my wife, while I went to the
base.
Q So when
you went to the base, you didn't have the gun with you; is that
right?
A Yes, sir,
that's right.
Q You can't
take a gun on a military base, can you?
A No, sir.
Q All right. Now,
the people you visited had a telephone, didn't they?
A Yes, sir.
1591
Q And before you left to go over to
Lejeune to visit with Ronnie, you made a call, didn't you?
A Yes, sir,
I did.
Q
You called Ronnie, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q
And your wife got on the phone, didn't
she?
A Yes, sir.
Q And your
wife said, "Hi, Ronnie," didn't she?
A Yes, sir.
Q And she
was very friendly to him --
A Yes, sir.
Q
-- isn't that a fact?
A Yes, sir.
Q
And you could hear what she said to
Ronnie Kimble?
A Yes, sir.
Q And she
said, "We had a great time visiting with you and Kim," didn't she?
A Yes, sir.
Q "And we
look forward to seeing you again," didn't she say that?
A I'm sure
she would have.
Q And then you got
on the phone and said, "Let's have lunch"?
A Yes, sir.
Q And he
said, "Fine." And that was your indicator that
1592
it was all right for you to go over and see Ronnie;
is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q He was
completely friendly and receptive to you, wasn't he?
A Yes, sir.
Q You all
were nice to him and he was nice to you; isn't that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, when
you located him, he was at his assignment in the chaplain's office,
wasn't he?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you
found him vacuuming --
A Yes, sir.
Q -- a few
minutes before lunchtime, at noon, right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you
had already told him you wanted to have lunch with him?
A Yes, sir.
Q So you
said, "Let's go," and he said, "I just need to finish up"?
A Yes, sir.
Q And then
he said he had to find his coworker or his supervisor and let her
know that he was going to take off for a few minutes, right?
1593
A Yes, sir.
Q But he
couldn't find her, right?
A I don't
recall whether he contacted her or not.
Q You don't remember whether
there was a third party there?
A As I said again, I don't recall whether he
contacted his supervisor or not.
Q In any event, other than Ronnie, you didn't talk
to anybody that day, until you'd finished talking to Ronnie, right?
A Yes, sir,
I did talk to someone else.
Q Before
you talked to Ronnie on the base?
A Yes, sir.
Q Who?
A I talked
to -- where he was -- the chapel that he was in, I was -- my old
barracks, where I used to work at, was across the street. So I just
walked over there and looked around, maybe spoke to just a couple of
people, asked how things were going there at my old unit.
Q And that
was because you had to kill a little time before your engagement
with Ronnie for lunch; is that right?
A Probably.
Q Yeah. Then you found him
vacuuming; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q So you --
he couldn't locate his coworker, so he
1594
decided to lock the chapel, so you all could go have
a quick lunch; is that correct?
A I don't
recall whether he locked the chapel or not.
Q In any event, you and he went out
and got in his truck, didn't you?
A Yes, we
did.
Q And he thought you were going to
go to lunch, as far as you know; isn't that right?
A I don't
recall what he thought at that time.
Q Well, but in any event, you
made the engagement with him, based on having lunch?
A The way I remember it, sir, that we agreed to
meet during lunchtime. I don't believe we agreed to eat together.
Q So, as you were walking to his vehicle, you
said, "I've consulted some people about what you told me the other
night," didn't you?
A No, sir.
If I'm not mistaken, I said that at the end of the conversation.
Q So, you
said -- what did you say to him?
A I just
told him that I had came down to talk to him about a few things, and
he said, "Well, we can talk in the truck." We got in his truck. And
then, we went from there.
Q And you
told him that you were very concerned about what you'd found out
from him a couple of nights before, and
1595
he expressed surprise that you thought you'd found
out anything, didn't he?
A No, sir,
he didn't.
Q
Didn't he tell you, when you brought
up the subject, that that was a dream?
A Yes, sir,
he did tell me that.
Q And you
argued with him about that, didn't you?
A No, sir.
I wouldn't call it an argument.
Q Well,
when you told the gentlemen on the 5th of February what had happened
with Ronnie, you told them that it seemed as if he was backing away
from what he'd told you before, didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q
So, he clearly said to you "What we
were talking about was a dream," didn't he? He clearly said that to
you?
A
No, sir, he didn't clearly say that.
Q
You understood that he told you that
the substance of what he had said to you while he was up at your
house was based upon a dream; isn't that right?
A No, sir.
That wasn't clearly established.
Q And in
fact, you again discussed with him a dream that you had had, didn't
you?
A I don't
recall discussing a dream at that time.
Q
Because just like Ronnie, you
have the same dream again and again and again, don't you?
1596
A I don't recall any reoccurring dreams that I've
had.
Q You've had that dream that you
told the jury about before the break several times, haven't you?
A No, sir.
I've had that dream once.
Q Once that
you can remember?
A No, sir.
Once.
Q
And after Ronnie told you that
it was a dream, there was nothing more to talk about, you didn't
have lunch, and you left; isn't that right?
A No, sir. There was more to that conversation.
Q Well, tell the jury how many
minutes you and Ronnie were in his truck.
A I don't recall exactly how many minutes we were
in the truck.
Q
It was about --
A I wasn't
--
Q
-- three minutes, wasn't it?
A --
keeping track of the time.
Q
Sir?
A I don't
know.
Q It was
about two or three minutes, wasn't it?
A I don't
know, sir.
Q Long
enough to have an extremely brief conversation, and after he told
you it was a dream, you said, "Well, I've checked on what my
responsibilities are." And he said,
1597
"What do you mean?" And you said, "I've been to a
lawyer," didn't you?
A That's
not exactly the way the conversation went.
Q Well, I don't want to put words
in your mouth. Tell the members of the jury what you did say about a
lawyer.
A What
happened was, we set in the truck and then -- and then we discussed
this. He told me that he thought it was a dream, that he wasn't sure
whether it was a dream or not. And I told him that if it -- that he
would know if it was a dream or not, because he would know where the
murder weapon was, and he would also be receiving money from his
brother, and that would indicate that it was not a dream. And he
said he just wasn't sure if it was a dream or not, and he thought
maybe it was just a bad dream.
Afterwards, when I was getting
ready to leave, I told him, I said, "Well," I said, "I've consulted
a lawyer, and I've talked to them about what my responsibilities
are." (Mr. Hatfield and Mr. Panosh conferred.)
Q I show you a document, sir, and ask you if you
will look. Is this the official court transcript of the proceedings
on October (sic) 3rd? Can you tell from glancing at this? See that?
(Indicated.)
A I assume
it is a -- Yes, sir.
Q Have you
ever seen this before?
A No, sir,
I haven't.
1598
Q Okay. I ask you to look at Page
14, and these are questions and answers that Mr. Panosh was asking
you. Do you see that Mr. Panosh asked you "And did you in fact speak
to a lawyer or lawyers in Lynchburg, Virginia?" Do you see that?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you
said, "Yes"?
A Yes, sir.
Q
"And based upon their advice, did you
at a later time contact the police department," then he corrects
himself and says "the sheriff's department?" Do you see that?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you
said, "Yes." And then it says, "And did there come a time when you
were interviewed by Agent Pendergrass of the SBI and Detective
Church of the Guilford County Sheriff's Department?" Do you see
that?
A Yes, sir.
Q
And you said, "Yes, sir" to Mr. Panosh,
didn't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the
question is, "And where did that take place?" What was your answer?
A "That
took place in the lawyer's office."
Q
Now, were you referring to the
February 3rd meeting in Yeatts and Falwell's office?
A Yes, I
must have been.
1599
Q Okay. Now, you see the question Mr. Panosh asked
you, "Now, before actually being interviewed by Pendergrass and
Church, did you have further contact with the defendant, Ronnie
Kimble?" Do you see that question?
(Time was
allowed for the witness.)
A Yes, sir,
and I answered incorrectly. I answered, "No, I did not, before the
first interview." I must have been confused on the --
MR. PANOSH: May he have the rest of
the transcript, before counsel takes it away and he was trying to
read from it?
Q Do you
need to read this further? I'm sorry. I didn't know you needed to
read it further. I thought you were explaining the mistake you'd
made.
A Yes, sir,
I would like to read more of that.
(Mr. Hatfield
handed a document to the witness, and time was allowed for the
witness.)
A Yes, sir, that was a
mistake that I made on the chronology of events.
MR. HATFIELD: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Mr.
Panosh, additional questions?
MR. PANOSH: Yes, please.
REDIRECT
EXAMINATION by MR. PANOSH:
Q Showing you
then State's Number 120, which you've already referred to, is that
the parking pass?
1600
A Yes, sir, it is.
MR. PANOSH:
Seek to introduce Number 120.
THE COURT: The
Court'll allow the introduction of 120.
Q Showing you 117, which you've
already referred to, is that the receipt from Days Inn?
A Yes, sir, it is.
MR. PANOSH:
Seek to introduce 117.
THE COURT: The
Court'll allow the introduction.
Q Showing you
131, the agreement that your counsel negotiated with the DA's
Office, is that the agreement?
A Yes, sir.
MR. PANOSH:
Seek to introduce 131.
MR. LLOYD:
Object on the grounds previously stated, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Objection overruled. I
mean, objection sustained as to that.
MR. PANOSH: Your Honor, after their
objection, they went into it extensively on cross-examination. I
believe it's necessary for --
THE COURT:
I've already ruled.
MR. PANOSH: --
clarity.
THE COURT:
I've ruled, Mr. Panosh.
MR. PANOSH:
Yes, sir.
THE COURT:
Further questions of the witness?
1601
MR. PANOSH: Yes, please.
Q
You were specifically asked about
what, if any, conversation you had with Ronnie Kimble at or about
the time he was leaving your residence. What do you recall of that?
A
After the time he was leaving the
residence, we talked and he said that he would -- he said that he
would call me, that -- but he would not call me from his home phone,
because he believed his home phone was tapped or had a bug or
something of that nature, and that -- but that he would call me from
a pay phone somewhere and contact me further. I then told him that I
did not think that would be a good idea. And he was pretty insistent
that he would want to call me later, and I said I didn't think it
would be a good idea. And we left it at that.
Q And in
the conversation that you had with him at Camp Lejeune, did he make
any similar comments?
A No, sir,
not that I recall.
Q
When he admitted to you that he had killed Patricia Kimble, what was
his demeanor?
MR. HATFIELD: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q At the time he made the
statements to you in your bedroom, what was his demeanor?
A He was
crying and very upset.
Q
You were asked
about a date in July of 1996 and asked
1602
whether you started school in July of
1996. Have you been able to clarify that?
A Yes, sir,
I have. We enrolled on July -- on the first of July. We enrolled the
first part of July. And we -- but we didn't actually start school,
classes didn't actually start until the following month. I was
mistaken. They started around August 21st, was the actual classes.
MR. PANOSH: No
further. Thank you, sir.
MR. HATFIELD: Just two questions,
please, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION by MR. HATFIELD:
Q Will you look at the exhibit --
your statement of November -- February 3rd, look at Page 4, please.
A Yes, sir.
Q Looking
at the paragraph at the top of the page, in the middle of that
paragraph, "Following this, Whidden stated . . ."
Will you read that, please. Could you read it out loud to the jury.
A Yes, sir,
I could. It says, "Following this, Whidden stated he suggested to
Ronnie Kimble that if he needed to talk with Whidden any further,
that he should give him a call (sic) Lynchburg, Virginia residence."
Q So, the
fact is that on that date, you stated that you invited Ronnie to
call you again; isn't that right? That's
1603
what you said?
A I don't
recall that. I don't recall ever telling -asking him to call. I do
recall asking him not to call our home.
Q
That's just another mistake, isn't it?
A Yes, sir,
that is a mistake.
Q
That one of the five gentlemen made
when they wrote it up?
A I can't
say -- I can't say about how they copied what I said. All I can know
is that what I told Ronnie Kimble is that I would rather he not call
me.
Q
All right. Now, here's what you said
under oath on the -- on Page 16 of your August 3rd statement. Read
-- you were asked the question "Did there come a time when you
offered to have further conversation with him?" I did read that
question correctly, didn't I?
A Yes, sir,
you did.
Q All
right. Will you read your answer.
A "He
expressed interest that he might want to call me, and I suggested
that he not."
Q Okay. So
that's your sworn statement, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q
And it's right, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q And the
statement in the exhibit up there is wrong,
1604
isn't it?
A (No
response was given.)
THE COURT: Is that the extent of your
questions, Mr. Hatfield?
MR. HATFIELD:
Yes. That's my question.
THE COURT: You
may step down.
MR. HATFIELD:
Well, he hasn't answered, I don't
believe.
A Yes, sir, that is an incorrect
statement, and I did tell Ronnie Kimble that I would not want him to
call me any further.
THE COURT: You
may step down, sir.
THE WITNESS:
Yes, sir.
(The witness
left the witness stand.)
THE COURT: Stand and
stretch, if you'd like, members of the jury.
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