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Next witness, please. MR. PANOSH: Mrs. Whidden, please. DEBRA MARIE WHIDDEN, being first duly sworn, testified as follows during DIRECT EXAMINATION by MR. PANOSH: Q Would you please state your name. A Debra Marie Whidden. Q And Mrs. Whidden, you're the wife of Reverend Whidden who just testified; is that correct? A Yes. 1605 Q During the period of time that Reverend Whidden was in the Marine Corps, did you know Ronnie Kimble? A No, I didn't. Q Did there come a time on or about January the 23rd when Ronnie Kimble came to your home? A Yes. Q Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury of the circumstances leading up to that visit, as you recall them. A I remember my husband stating that one of his friends in the Marine Corps wanted to come and visit the school. And he asked if it would be okay if they came to our house. And I said yes. Q And he asked if it would be okay to come to your house, and what was your response? A "That's fine with me." Q And I take it there were several telephone conversations setting up the visit? A No. Q How many were there, that you recall? A That I recall, there was only two. Well, there was one, and then the one when they arrived in town. That's what I recall. Q And when they arrived, had you been expecting them to arrive for some days? 1606 A I had expected them, but not -- I didn't know exactly when they were coming. Q Had you made any preparations for them to come? A No. Q So, the fact that they were coming was not unexpected, just the day? A Right. Q Do you remember the evening that they arrived at your home? A Yes, I do. Q Would you tell the jury the circumstances of how they got to your home, as you recall them. A They called from the university, and Mitch went up and met them, and they followed him to our house. Q And when they arrived at your home, was it -- could you characterize it as being early or late in the evening? A It was after dark. It was bedtime. Q And when you said "bedtime," you're referring to your minor children? A (The witness nodded her head up and down.) Q Were your children in bed when they arrived? A No. Q They were up, expecting visitors? A Well, they were just up. They weren't in bed yet. Q What happened, after Ronnie and Kimberly Kimble came to 1607 your house? A They came that night, and we just sat around and talked. I got along very well with Kim. I really like her. We just talked about general things. I was pregnant at the time. Talked about my pregnancy. And then we went up to bed. Q Briefly, what were the sleeping arrangements made for them? A They slept on a mattress in my kids' room. Q And where did your kids sleep? A With us, in our room. Q The next morning, which would have been the 24th, do you recall the events of that day? A They left before I got up, to go to school with Mitch. I hadn't planned anything for lunch, because I wasn't sure what their plans were, so I hadn't made anything for lunch. But they got home around quarter after 12:00, 12:30, and they had already eaten. So I believe that Mitch made hot dogs for us and the kids -- for me and the kids, since I wasn't feeling very well. Q Do you remember the events of the afternoon -- of that afternoon? A We just sat around. And they were trying to get a-hold of Dr. Falwell. They wanted to get up to meet him. And they had been trying to call his office, to see when he'd be 1608 in. We sat around, played Nintendo. We just talked. Q Other than play Nintendo, were there any other specific activities you remember? A No. Q As the day progressed, did there come a time when they left your home? A Yes. They left -- Dr. Falwell's secretary didn't know exactly what time he would be in, so they decided to go up there and wait for him, because they knew that it would be anytime. So Ronnie and Kim left. Q And I take it they were gone for a period of time? A Yes. Q And when they returned, what occurred? A When they returned, Kim decided to call her mother, to let her know that they made it safe, and her mother was on the other line with Detective Church. Q How do you know that? A Because when she got off the phone -- they got off quickly, and when she got off the phone, she said that her mom would call her back at the house, because she was on the other line. And Ronnie got upset. Q What you say "got upset," what do you mean? A He was upset. He thought that the detectives were done bothering him. He said they had been harassing him basically. And he was upset that they were still calling. 1609 Q Did that cause any further discussion into the events of Patricia Kimble's death? A They talked about her death. Word for word, I don't remember what happened. They just had said that the sister-in-law was murdered, and I remember asking how Ronnie's brother was dealing with it, because I know that's hard. And Kim told me good under the circumstances. And that's really all that I remember. Q Thereafter, did you go to dinner with your husband and the Kimbles and your children? A Yes, we did. Q Do you remember the restaurant? A We went to Country Cooking. Q And what type of restaurant is that? A It's a buffet, a vegetable buffet, and then you order your meat. And it's very inexpensive. That's why we decided to go to that one. Q And do you remember if you and your guests had the same table or a different table? A We sat at the same. It was a booth. Q And because it was a buffet, would you explain the way the meal went. A People were leaving the whole time, to go up and get food. Q Is it the type of restaurant where you could get up and 1610 get as much as you want, whenever you want to? A Yes. Q And this applies to everything but the meats? A Right. Q In the course of that evening there at the dinner table, did the discussion turn toward Ronnie Kimble and his desire to come to Liberty University? A Yes. Ronnie was telling us that he really wanted to come to the university, but he kept making up all these excuses, like, his dog, his parents wouldn't want to have his dog. And Mitch made the comment, "Just give up everything. Come and serve God. That's what we did." Q Do you remember what Ronnie Kimble said to that? A He got very serious and he said, "I can't, because I have a haunted past." Q Did you reply to that in any way? A I just kind of made light of it, and I said, "Oh, we've all been kids once. I'm sure you haven't done anything that the rest of us haven't done." I kind of hit Mitch, and I said, "At least Mitch," kind of joking. And he got very serious, and he said, "I wouldn't be too sure about that." Q After you had finished your meal, do you remember where you went as a group? A Yes. We went over to -- Kim and I walked over to Best. It was in the same shopping area. They were going out of 1611 business. And every week, things were less and less. So we walked over there. And Mitch and Ronnie drove the van around to closer to the store. Q Do you remember if you walked over with the children? A I can't remember. Q But you do remember that the gentlemen were in the van and you were walking? A Yes. Q And when you got to Best, then you got back together with Mitch and Ronnie and the children? A Yes. Q And you did some shopping? A (The witness nodded her head up and down.) Q And items were purchased? A Yes. Q Do you remember what items? A We bought an office chair. We were using a metal chair upstairs, and we bought an office chair for our desk. And they purchased the same one. Q And that was basically because it was a very good deal? A Yes. Q Do you remember how long you shopped? A It was quite awhile. We walked around in there quite awhile, but I don't know any exact times. I don't keep track. 1612 Q But you returned to your -- and then you returned to your home, correct? A Yes, we did. Q And if you recall, was this close to the children's bedtime when you returned? A Yes, it was. Q And your children's ages at that time were? A Mitchell was -- it was a week before his third birthday, and Mindy was going to be one in a couple of weeks. Q When you returned to your home, what do you recall of the events there? A I wasn't feeling very well, so I sat down on the couch, and we played Nintendo, just kind of were hanging out. And the last thing I remember, the men went upstairs. And then I fell asleep. Q Did there come a time when it became necessary to carry you to your room? Do you recall that? A Barely. Q Okay. And that was due to your existing medical condition? A Yes. Q Did you feel at that time that your -- First of all, was this an unusual event for you? A I had low blood sugar throughout my pregnancy, and I 1613 was having trouble. I had seen the doctor about it. And basically she said, "Eat cookies first thing in the morning. And if you have any more trouble, come and see me." And so, I just wanted to wait. We didn't have any insurance. We didn't have any Medicaid. I just wanted to try to get by long enough to where I could get in to see the doctor, because I knew that it wouldn't cost us any more. And I called her first thing Monday morning. Q Now, there's been mention of the university health services. Were those available to you? A It was a walk-in clinic, but it cost just as much as any other clinic. It wasn't -- and I don't think they were open. I know they weren't open 24 hours, and I'm sure that they weren't open that night. Q In any event, you decided that it was not necessary to see a doctor at that point? A Yes. Q But there probably was discussion about that? A I don't remember. I don't remember anything till the next morning. Q What do you remember of the next morning? A I remember waking up, and Mitch had come upstairs, and he said, "I didn't sleep very well last night. I'm not --" he said, "I didn't sleep last night. I'm not feeling very well. I'm going to lay down." And the kids were still 1614 asleep, and so, he came upstairs and he laid down. And he -- I just thought maybe he wasn't feeling good. I know my husband very well. We've been together eight years, been married almost six. And I can read him like a book. And I've never seen him this upset. Q Based upon your observations of him, what did you do? A Well, I just kind of -- I -- I kept asking him questions, about like, "Do you think Ronnie and Kim are going to move up here?" And he just kept saying, "I don't want to talk about it right now." He just kept kind of -And so, I just kind of left him alone. And then, later on that afternoon, I just could tell that things were getting more tense. I could tell that it's just not like him. He's very laid back, easy to get along with. And I sat there and I said, "When you and Ronnie went upstairs, he told you that he'd killed his sister-in-law, didn't he?" (Crying.) And he looked at me and he said, "Yes." And I started crying, and I said, "What are we going to do?" I was so afraid. And he said, "I have to turn him in. I don't have a choice." Q Did you discuss that further? A I'm sure that we did, but I don't remember exactly. I know that he said, "I'm going to call Kay." Q His sister? A Yes. He said, "I'm going to call Kay, and I'm going to 1615 have her come over and keep the kids, while I go and meet with Dr. Falwell, because I need to get some advice from him." Q Did there come a time when Kay drove down from Richmond? A Yes. She came immediately. Within an hour, she left. Q And after Kay came down to Lynchburg, what occurred? A Her and Jeanie came over to the house. And at that time, Mitch hadn't told her before she got there what had happened. He just told her that he needed her there. And he sat down and told her exactly what was going on and what he needed to talk to Dr. Falwell about. Q Who's Jeanie? A Dr. Falwell's daughter. Q Based upon that, were plans made to see Dr. Falwell at the basketball game? A Yes. Well, we decided that we'd all go up to the game. Q And you took the children? A Yes, we did. Q And while Mitch had an opportunity to speak to Dr. Falwell, were you present? A I was in and out, yes. Q Taking care of the children? A Yes. Q And the same applied to Kay and Jeanie, is that 1616 correct, or do you recall? A I don't recall. Q How long did Mitch talk to Dr. Falwell? A It wasn't long. 15, 20 minutes, if that. I don't know exactly. Q And after Mitch talked to Dr. Falwell, did he tell you what Dr. Falwell's advice was? A Well, I was standing -- MR. LLOYD: Well, objection, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q All right. Based upon what Mitch told you, what action did you and Mitch take? A We decided to go get a hotel. But that was our decision, prior to him. And we met with Jerry, Jr. Q And the meeting with Jerry Falwell, Jr., did that occur before you went to get the motel? A Yes, it did. Q Was that also in the basketball area there -- A Yes. Q -- arena there? Were you present there? A I was in and out. Q Did you hear -- Or let me just ask you to state the purpose of that meeting. A They just wanted to set up a time when they could get together. And we don't have a computer, so Mitch wanted him 1617 to see if he could find anything out about this case, as far as, find out where Detective Church was and how we could contact him, if we decided to. Q I take it then you went to the motel? A We went home and packed up a few things. I stayed in the van with the kids, and Mitch just ran inside to get us church clothes, and then we went to the hotel. Q And when you arrived at the motel, what happened? A He stayed in the van with the kids, and I went inside to get the room. And I told the receptionist not to tell anyone that we're here, unless Kay Whidden comes, because I thought maybe she would stay with us. Q So, that evening, did you and your husband discuss the situation? A I'm sure we did. Q And the next day, what did you decide to do? A I can't remember. Q All right. A I know that he -- I can't remember. Q The next day would have been Sunday. A We went to church. After church, we went out to eat with Jeanie and Kay. And then we went back to the house. And I didn't want to leave yet, to go -- I guess we did decide to go to North Carolina, but I didn't want to leave yet, because I wanted to go see a doctor first. 1618 Q Do you know if there were conversations with the attorney on the telephone on Sunday? A I don't. I'm not sure. Q Then the next day, which would have been Monday, and you made your doctor's appointment, and at some point, you left for North Carolina; is that correct? A Yes, after my doctor's appointment. Q When you went to North Carolina, where did you stay? A We stayed at our old landlords' house, some friends' house. Q And where is that in relationship to the base? A It's about -- it's towards Richlands, which is about 30 minutes from the base. Q Did you and your husband discuss the reason that you were going to Camp Lejeune? A Yes. Q What did Mitch tell you? A He wanted to go and try to talk Ronnie into turning himself in. Q How did you feel about that? A I was all for it. I was -- I was all for it. I just wanted him to turn his self in. Q Why was that? A Because I was afraid. Q Afraid of what? 1619 A I was afraid, because he told Mitch that Mitch was the only one that he had told, and I was afraid he would come and try to harm us. Q Did you feel that by going to Camp Lejeune, you were placing yourselves in danger? A No. Camp Lejeune is safe. I wasn't going to go up there, but I wasn't afraid for him to go. Q And eventually, Mitch did call Ronnie? A Yes. Q Did there come a time when you spoke to Ronnie? A Yes, I did. Q And what did you tell him? A On the way -- on the way to Camp Lejeune, I told Mitch, I said, "What are you going to do if Ronnie asks you if you told anyone?" I said, "If you told him that --" "If you tell him that I know, then it's really going to --" I was afraid that it would make him upset. And so, I got on the phone, to -- I got on the phone and I was nice to him, just so that he wouldn't ask Mitch if I knew. Q And there came a time when your husband did meet with Ronnie, and it was about lunchtime; is that correct? A Yes. Q And during the period of time he was meeting with him, you waited there at the friends' house? A Yes, I did. 1620 Q When he returned, what, if anything, did Mitch tell you? A He told me that Ronnie said that it was all just a bad dream, and that Ronnie had an alibi. He thought that it was just a bad dream. And Mitch said, "Well, if it's a bad dream, then you'll know that it's not when your brother tries to give you money or if you know where the weapon is." Q And thereafter, did you stay with your friends that evening? A Yes, we did. We stayed that evening and we left the following day. Q Where did you go? A We went straight to church on Wednesday night. We got there just in time for church, because I was in the nursery. And then that Wednesday night, we stayed at our house, I believe. Q And you're talking about Lynchburg? A Yes. Q And then after Wednesday night in Lynchburg, where did you go? A We left Thursday and went to Richmond. My son and daughter's birthdays. My son's February 1st and my daughter's February 10th. And we planned a birthday party at Chuck E Cheese on the 1st. And so, we went to Richmond. Q Did there come a time when you returned to Lynchburg? 1621 A Yes, we did. That was Sunday afternoon. Q And you were present for part of the time that he met with Detective Church and Agent Pendergrass? A Yes, I was, just at the very end. Q And what happened after that? A Well, before that, we decided to -- I told him, I said, "I can't live like this. I'm not sleeping. I'm not eating. I'm afraid I'm going to lose the baby. We need to go home." (Crying.) Q And did you move away from Lynchburg? A (The witness nodded her head up and down.) Q What was the reason you left Lynchburg? A We were afraid. I couldn't stay at the house by myself. Q And Mitch dropped out of school? A (The witness nodded her head up and down.) Q Did you tell anybody your location? A We told -- we told Jerry, Jr., and we told the LBI office, but we told them not to tell anyone else. Q What's -- A I don't know if we told -- Q What's the OBI office? A LBI office. That was his school, Liberty Bible Institute. Q Did there come a time when he was able to return to 1622 Liberty Institute? A Yes, he did. Q And when was that? A Fall of '97, August '97. Q And why did you feel that you could return at that time? A Because Ronnie and Ted were in jail. Q And you're now living in Florida, where he's a pastor, aren't you? A Yes, we are. But he wasn't able to graduate, because of all of this. MR. PANOSH: No further. Thank you, ma'am. MR. LLOYD: Thank you, Your Honor. CROSS-EXAMINATION by MR. LLOYD: Q Now, Ms. Whidden, when Mitch told you that morning, confirmed what you had brought up to him -- A Yes. Q -- that Ronnie had told him upstairs that he was responsible for his sister-in-law's death, that was very upsetting to you, wasn't it? A Yes, it was. Q In fact, it's fair to say, and I believe you indicated on your testimony on direct examination that you started crying at that time? 1623 A Yes, I did. Q And it was very traumatic; is that a fair word to use? A Yes. Q Upset you a great deal? A Yes. Q And that was because your husband told you that the person who had spent the night before under your roof in your children's bedroom was a murderer; is that right? A Yes. (Crying.) Q Now, you indicated on direct that you had never met -Excuse me. If you -- A That's all right. Q -- need some water -- A Go ahead. Q You had never met Ronnie Kimble or his wife, Kim -- A No, I hadn't. Q -- when Ronnie and Mitch were both in the Marines together; is that right? A No, I hadn't. Q But let me ask you this, Mrs. Whidden. You had heard something about Patricia Kimble's death from your husband, Mitch -- A Yes. Q -- while you were down -- while Mitch was still in the Marine Corps; is that right? 1624 A Yes. Q Okay. But that was the only source that you had heard it from? A Until they came to our house. Q I understand. A Yes. Q And you hadn't read -- there weren't any newspaper articles that you had read -- A No. Q -- or anything like that? You hadn't seen anything on the Internet or anything of that sort? So, what little you knew about it came from your husband, Mitch -- A Yes. Q -- is that right? And let me ask you this, Mrs. Whidden. Did you all talk about it a great deal? A No, we didn't. Q All right. So it was just sort of mentioned in passing at maybe dinnertime conversation or something of that sort? Q A Yes. My husband and I are very close and we share everything. Q All right. And so, when -- whatever opinions or views, in terms of what the evidence in the case showed, you would have gotten from your husband, Mitch; is that right? Q A Yes. Q Now, did Mitch tell you, Mrs. Whidden, that based on 1625 what he had heard down at Camp Lejeune, that he thought perhaps Ronnie Kimble's brother, Ted, was guilty of this offense? A No. Q All right. And he certainly did not tell you that he thought that Ronnie was in any way guilty or responsible -- A No. Q -- did he? A No. Q All right. Now, when you woke up that morning, which would have been, I guess, that Saturday morning -- A Yes. Q -- that Ronnie and Kim left, Ronnie and Kim had already left at that time -- A Yes. Q -- is that right? And if you recall, Mrs. Whidden, what time was it that you think that you woke up? A I don't know. I -- it's hard to say. Q All right. But you -- at any rate, on direct examination, I believe you indicated that the children were still asleep? A Yes, they were. Q And your first recollection of that morning is, that Mitch came back into the bedroom and said that he wasn't feeling well and had not slept -- 1626 A Yes. Q -- and that he was going to lie down again; is that right? A Yes. Q All right. And by that time, you were beginning to wake up? A Yes. Q Did you ask him at that time, Mrs. Whidden, where Ronnie and Kim were? A I asked him if they had left yet. Q All right. A And he told me yes, I believe. Q He told you at that time that they had left? A Yes. Q All right. And then, at some point, very shortly thereafter, you asked Mitch if Ronnie and Kim were going =to come up there and start living, and if Ronnie was going to go to Liberty Bible College; is that right? A Yes. Q All right. And Mitch's response to you was that, he didn't think so, and he didn't want to talk about it; is _ that right? A He said he didn't want to talk about it -- Q All right. A-- yes. 1627 Q Now -- and you -- you didn't ask him any more questions about it, you honored that request; is that right? A Yes. Q Okay. Now, sometime after that, I take it you got up? A Yes. Q All right. And you got the kids up or -- and you did what you normally do during the day. Now, was Mitch asleep at that time or -- A No. Mitch got up with me. Q All right. Did you make breakfast for the family or -- A I made breakfast for the kids -- Q All right. A -- I remember, but I don't know about us. Q Okay. But you indicated on direct examination that you could tell at that time that something was bothering Mitch, that he was upset, that he was tense; is that right? A Yes. Q All right. You didn't ask him any more questions about Ronnie and Kim at that point, because he had told you he didn't want to talk about it? A Right. Q And you indicated there were some time later on, after you had gotten up, that you confronted Mitch and said to him that "Ronnie Kimble had told you that he'd killed his sister-in-law"? 1628 A Yes. Q And Mitch confirmed that? A Yes. Q Now, that was -- was that into the afternoon that you said that? A Yes. It was -- Q All right. A -- much later. Q Okay. But you and Mitch had not talked about Ronnie and Kim or their leaving prior to that? A No. Q All right. So, this was something that you asked him spontaneously of your own accord? A Yes, it was. Q Okay. So it wasn't something like, it came up in the course of conversation or anything like that? A No. Q And basically, is it fair to say, Ms. Whidden, that you just divined that that's what Mitch was thinking about? MR. PANOSH: Object, please. THE COURT: Overruled. A Like I said, I have never seen my husband that upset. And I knew that this wasn't anything little that he was upset about. I knew that Ronnie must have told him something. And by the way Ronnie acted the day before, when 1629 Detective Church was on the phone with his mother-in-law, indicated to me -- I couldn't understand why he would be so mad. If it were my sister-in-law, I would want them to find who did it. Q Okay. So this was based in part on the fact that Ronnie was angry? A Yes. Q All right. And you've used the adjective that he was mad? A Yes, I would. Q All right. And is it fair to say that he was very mad? Is that an apt description of the way he was? A I don't know. Q Okay. Well, of course, I wasn't there, Mrs. Whidden, and that's why we have -- A I know. Q -- to ask you questions. A I understand that. Q But at any rate, the appropriate adjective, as far as you're concerned, about Ronnie Kimble's demeanor, after the call or after he learned that Detective Church had called, was that he was mad or angry? A Yes. Q All right. And going back to when you confronted Mitch and said to him, "Ronnie Kimble told you he killed his 1630 sister-in-law, didn't he?" You basically -- would it be fair to say that you, through intuition, or some other sense, knew what was bothering Mitch? A Yes, I guess. Q Now, going back to the night before, Mrs. Whidden, the first night that Ronnie and Kim came was late on January 23rd? A Yes. Q And that would have been Thursday; is that right? A Yes. Q And do you recall what time of night they actually got there? A No, I don't. Q But at any rate, although it was at night, the children were still up -- A Yeah. Q -- on that first night? And there wasn't time for you folks to go out or anything like that, so basically, you just got acquainted at that time; is that right? A Yes. Q All right. And then you made up the sleeping arrangements, where Ronnie and Kim slept in your children's bedroom? A Yes. Q And you moved the children into your -- y'all's room; 1631 is that right? A Yes. Q All right. And then when you got up the next morning, that was when Ronnie and Kim went with Mitch to classes -- A Yes. Q -- at Liberty Bible Institute? And you stayed home with the children? A Yes, I did. Q At some point, they came back in the afternoon; is that right? A Yes. All of them came back together. Q Now, and Mitch had been in class that morning? A Yes. Q All right. But he stayed with you during the afternoon; is that right? A Yes, he did, if I recall correctly. Q Okay. So he did not have afternoon classes? A No. His classes were 8:00 to noon -- Q Okay. Was that -- A -- every day. Q -- the way his schedule was arranged every day? A It was 8:00 to noon Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and I think that it was 8:00 to 10:30 or 11:00 on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Q All right. And after lunch, Ronnie and Kim went back 1632 to Liberty Bible Institute or back to the campus, to try to see Dr. Falwell; is that right? A Well, they had already had lunch when -- Q Yes. A -- Mitch was in class. Q All right. A After lunch, they did go back. Q So, do you recall what time that was? A I don't. Q But at some point -- A Late afternoon. Q -- they went to the campus and saw Dr. Falwell, and then they came back -- A Yes. Q -- to y'all's apartment? And it was at that time that they -- y'all decided to go out to dinner; is that right? A Yes. I was planning on cooking, but like I said, I wasn't feeling well, and so, we all decided to go out to eat. Q Okay. And do you recall, Mrs. Whidden, if Ronnie and Kim told you that it would be their treat, as sort of a reciprocal kindness, for the kindness that you had showed them, in letting them stay there? A Well, I had planned on buying theirs, because I'd felt bad. I was supposed to be -- they were staying at my house, 1633 and I thought that I should cook, so I was planning on paying, but then when it came time to pay, Kim decided to pay, and we put down the tip, and I appreciated that. Q All right. And the restaurant that y'all went out to is basically a family restaurant; is that right? A Yes. Q All right. And was it -- you'd indicated on direct examination that that was when the conversation turned to Ronnie's possible attendance at Liberty Bible College; is that right? A Yes. Q All right. And what you recall, Mrs. Whidden, is Ronnie at some point making the statement that he had a haunted past? A Yes. Q Now, are you telling the jury that that's your recollection of his actual words? A Yes. Q And that you made sort of light of the situation -- A I did. Q -- by making this comment "Well, you haven't done anything that any of the rest of us hadn't done," and you even made some reference to Mitch; is that right? A Yes. Q All right. And at that time, it was Ronnie who 1634 supposedly said, "I wouldn't be so sure about that"? A Yes, he did. And he was very serious. Q All right. And of course, you were just making light of the situation. Do you recall any comments that Kim - A I don't -- no, I don't. Q Okay. A I don't remember. She might have been gone to the buffet. I don't recall anything about that. Q You said in your statement to police officers, Mrs. Whidden, that after that, Ronnie said that he needed to talk to Mitch in private, outside the presence of you and Kim -- A Yes -- Q -- is that right? A -- he did say that. Q Not to mention the children, but that was - A No. Q -- understood, as well? A Right. Q Now, at the time that he said -- and that was -- was that at the dinner table, I mean, at the -- A Yes. Q -- booth where you were having dinner? A Yes. Q At the time, did you think there was anything odd about that statement, Mrs. Whidden? 1635 A No. Q Well, you've indicated -- A Not -- I don't -- Q I don't mean to cut you off. A I don't know -- no, I don't -- it's just so hard to remember. It's been 19 months. It's -- Q I understand. But you've indicated that you and your husband share everything, that you don't have any secrets? A Yes. Q And my -- I guess my question to you, Mrs. Whidden, you say that you don't -- you didn't think anything odd about that statement at the time -- MR. PANOSH: Objection. She didn't say that. THE COURT: Overruled. You may continue with the question, Mr. Lloyd. Q Well, you correct me if I'm correct, Mrs. Whidden. Did you think there was anything odd about that statement, when Ronnie Kimble made it? A Not everyone's like me and Mitch. Not everyone are as open as we are with each other. Q Okay. I guess my question to you, Mrs. Whidden, is, did you look over at Kim and think "What if my husband had said that, that he wanted to say something in private, to Ronnie Kimble outside of my presence? And I would feel strange about that"? Did that -- 1636 A No. Q -- thought ever go through your mind? A No. It might have, but I don't remember it. Q But it doesn't stand out? A No. Q Now, when you got back -- Well, let me ask you this, Mrs. Whidden, if you remember. You've testified about the phone call -- A Yes. Q -- that Kim called her mother? A Yes. Q And that her mother relayed the information or the phone call had to be cut short to Detective Church. Now, was that specific name used -- A Yes. That's the first time -- Q -- to your recollection? A -- that I heard that name. Q All right. And that was the first time you had ever heard that name? A Yes. Q And did this happen before or after you went to dinner?_ A Before. Q This happened before? So, after dinner, you didn't go directly home, did you? A No. 1637 Q And you went -- I believe you've indicated that you went to a department store called Best; is that right? A Yes. Q And was there -- I wasn't clear on this, Mrs. Whidden. It was going out of business at the time; is that correct? A Yes, it was. And every week, they kept lowering -- Q All right. A --the-- Q Now, Mrs. Whidden, do you recall -- either before or after going to Best Department Store, do you recall going to a shoe store and shopping for some shoes, or at least window-shopping for some shoes? A Yes. There's a shoe store right beside there. I do remember that. Q And so, you do recall that you went there? A Yes. As we were walking along. I don't know if we went inside. But there is a shoe store right there. Q Do you recall specifically that you and Kim did some window-shopping? A Yes, as we walked over to Best. Q All right. And do you recall, Mrs. Whidden, after going to Best and you and Mitch bought a chair, an office chair, and Kim and Ronnie also bought the same chair; is that right?
A Yes. 1638 Q Do you recall what you paid for it? A No, I don't. Q Okay. But it was a good deal, as far as you were concerned? A Yes. Q Do you recall after that going to -- or do you recall looking and Mitch considering buying some kind of karaoke tape recorder? A Yes, at Best. Q At Best. All right. Do you recall considering whether or not that was too expensive or -- A I don't remember. Q Okay. But as far as your recollection, did you buy it on that occasion? A No, we didn't. Q Okay. And after that, you went home; is that correct? A Yes. Q And as far as what you did when you got home, do you recall what time it was when you got home, Mrs. Whidden? A It was pretty late. It was almost bedtime for the kids. Q Okay. A Which would be around 9:00, around that. I'm not sure exactly. Q And do you recall Ronnie Kimble assembling the chair or 1639 helping Mitch to assemble the chair? A I remember that they assembled the chair, but I think that it was upstairs. I'm not positive. Q Well, let me ask you this, Mrs. Whidden. Do you recall your, I guess it would have been your son, Mitchell, playing on a chair at that time -- A I don't. Q -- with Ronnie? A I don't. I don't. Q Now, was it during this time that you passed out from low blood sugar? A It was while we were downstairs and they were upstairs -- or while they were down-- yeah, while we were downstairs and they were upstairs. I do remember Mitchell was with his daddy, but -- Q Okay. So, is what you're saying, Mrs. Whidden, that when you passed out, when you actually became unconscious, that Ronnie and Mitch were upstairs at that time? A Yes, they were, if I remember correctly. Q All right. A I'm not for sure where they assembled the chair. I just don't remember. Q Okay. When you passed out, was it before the children had gone to bed or after the children had gone to bed? A I don't remember. 1640 Q And do you recall, Mrs. Whidden, when you passed out, I take it your husband would have been very concerned? A Yes. Q And do you recall him coming downstairs and asking you what was wrong and -- A I don't remember. Q You don't remember that at all? A (The witness shook her head from side to side.) Q But if they had been upstairs, Mitch and Ronnie had been upstairs, do you remember whether -- if you were downstairs with only Kim, do you remember whether Kim summoned them from upstairs, to come downstairs? A I don't remember. Q And is it possible, Mrs. Whidden, that when you actually passed out, everyone was downstairs with you at that time? If you remember. A It's possible, but I don't remember. I was very sick those couple of days. Q And do you have any recollection of Ronnie Kimble helping you upstairs to bed, after you'd passed out -- A Vaguely. Q -- Ronnie and Mitch? A Vaguely. THE COURT: Mr. Lloyd, are you going to be some additional time? 1641 MR. LLOYD: Just some additional time, Your Honor. I don't think it's going to take much longer. THE COURT: All right. You may step down, Ms. Whidden. Watch your step. (The witness left the witness stand.) THE COURT: Members of the jury, we'll take our lunch recess. You'll need to be back at 2:00 o'clock. Please report to the jury room. Again, remember the jury responsibility sheet. Have a nice lunch. I'll see you at 2:00 o'clock. (The jury left the courtroom at 12:34 p.m.) MR. PANOSH: May we approach on a scheduling matter? THE COURT: Yes, you may. (All three counsel conferred with the Court at the bench.) THE COURT: 2:00 o'clock, sheriff. (A recess was taken at 12:36 p.m.) (Court reconvened at 2:01 p.m. The defendant was present. The jury was not present.) (The jury entered the courtroom at 2:01 p.m.) THE COURT: Ms. Scoggins, are you feeling better? MS. SCOGGINS: I'm feeling better, but I'm not going to -- I can tell a difference, with these lights. THE COURT: Okay. Do you need any Tylenol or anything like that? 1642 MS. SCOGGINS: I've taken quite a bit at lunch. THE COURT: All right. Anybody else having any problems on the panel? Hope you had a nice lunch and feeling okay. All right. The State call its next witness, please. MR. LLOYD: We're still in cross-examination, Your Honor. THE COURT: That's right. Excuse me. You're right. You are. (The witness Debra Marie Whidden returned to the witness stand.) THE COURT: Ms. Whidden, you're still under oath, ma'am. (The witness nodded her head up and down.) THE COURT: You may continue. MR. LLOYD: Thank you, Your Honor. CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION by MR. LLOYD: Q Mrs. Whidden, that Saturday when Ronnie and Kim left, and after Mitch had told you about a conversation between him and Ronnie, do you recall him mentioning a passage in Leviticus? A No. That was not until later. Q Do you recall when that was, Mrs. Whidden? A It was sometime after we were in Florida. 1643 Q Excuse me. I didn't hear. A Sometime after we were in Florida, after we had already moved. Q Now, you called -- were you the one, Mrs. Whidden, that called Ronnie down at Camp Lejeune? A No. Mitch did. Q All right. But you talked to him? A Yes, I did. Q And that was early in the phone conversation? A I believe so. Q Okay. And basically, you just identified yourself? A Yes. Q All right. And made some small talk about the visit that they had made up to Lynchburg? A Yes. Q All right. And of course, that visit to Lynchburg was the only time that you had met Ronnie and Kim; is that right, Mrs. Whidden? A Yes. Q And I believe you indicated on direct examination that you did that based on your fear that Ronnie might ask Mitch whether he had talked to you about this; is that right? A Yes. Q Let me ask you this, Mrs. Whidden. Did you consider that just bringing yourself into the situation, the fact 1644 that you were down near Camp Lejeune, might alert Ronnie to the fact that you were involved somehow? A I was just so afraid, that I just wanted to do anything that we could. I -- Q But, of course, your fear was not based on any threat that Ronnie had ever made to you or to Mitch, was it? A No. Q Now, after this conversation down at Camp Lejeune, Mitch came back and he talked to you about it; is that right? A Yes, he did. Q And he basically told you that at some point in that conversation -- Well, let me ask you this, Ms. Whidden. Of course, Mitch relayed to you that -- the whole purpose of going down there, to talk to Ronnie at Camp Lejeune, according to Mitch's testimony, was, to convince him to turn himself in; is that right? A Yes. Q And Mitch relayed to you, as far as the conversation with Ronnie down at Camp Lejeune, that he had told Ronnie that he had talked to a lawyer concerning his legal responsibility in the matter? A I believe so. Q All right. And Mitch told you that basically, Ronnie had said that the whole thing was a dream and never 1645 happened; is that right? A Yes. Q And as Mitch related it to you, his response to Ronnie was that he could tell that it was not a dream when Ronnie's brother gave him money; is that right? A Yes. Q And then there was something else that Mitch said, that Ronnie -- he told Ronnie he could tell it was not a dream, if he gave Ronnie the -- or if -- something about the murder weapon; is that right? A Something about it, yes. Q Do you recall exactly how -- what Mitch's explanation of his comment about the murder weapon was, Mrs. Whidden? A I don't. Q But at any rate, as Mitch relayed the conversation between him and Ronnie to you, Mitch never confronted Ronnie with the fact that it was not a dream, never said anything to you about that, did he? A No. Q Merely told you that he suggested to Ronnie he would know it was not a dream when his brother paid him money, and then something about the murder weapon; is that right? A Right. Q Now, Mrs. Whidden, you recall making a signed statement in connection with this case, don't you? 1646 A Yes, I do. Q And did you write that out in your own handwriting, Mrs. Whidden? A No, I didn't. Q Okay. But you read it over? A Yes, I did. Q And you were given a chance to make any corrections? A Yes. Q And it was based on something someone wrote, based on what you said; is that right? A Yes. Q Do you recall who wrote it? A I think that Detective Church did. Q Okay. And he wrote it while you were talking to him, while you were giving a statement to him? A Yes. Q And he told you, of course, that you needed to go over it and make sure that it was accurate, and he encouraged you to make corrections, if any needed to be made? A He just told me to read over it and sign it, yes. Q All right. Okay. And if there was anything that was inaccurate -- in fact -- MR. LLOYD: If I may approach, Your Honor. THE COURT: You may. Q Mrs. Whidden, I show you what's been marked as 1647 Defendant's Exhibit Number 11, and ask you if you recognize that. A Where's the rest of it? (Mr. Lloyd indicated.) Q And you can look at the other pages, too. (Time was allowed for the witness.) Q Let me just ask you this, Ms. Whidden. Is that the statement that Detective Church wrote out -- A Yes. Q -- and that you signed? A Yes -- Q All right. A -- it was. Q Now, Mrs. Whidden, directing your attention to the fourth page of this, I would ask you to read, and starting at the top of the page, if you would just read that, down tot; the middle of the paragraph or whatever you want, to yourself. (Indicated.) A To myself? Q Yeah. (Time was allowed for the witness.) Q All right. Now, Mrs. Whidden, that's what you told Detective Church; is that right? A Yes. But we also stated that Mitch found this later -- Q Well -- 1648 A -- when we were talking to him -- Q All right. A -- this Leviticus, while the statement was -- Q All right. Well, let me ask you this, Mrs. Whidden. Does your statement not say, "And Mitch also told me later that he had to turn him in, because the Bible said in Leviticus 5:1, 'If a person sins because he does not speak up when he hears a public charge to testify --'" Excuse me. A "Regarding." Q "'-- regarding something he has seen or --'" A "Learned." Q What does it say? A "Learned." Q "'-- learned about, he will be held responsible'"? And then the next sentence is, "The following Tuesday, the 28th of January, I rode with Mitch to Camp Lejeune"? A I do understand that, but we really did, when we were sitting at the table, Mitch made it clear that we found this later. Q Well, my question to you is, Mrs. Whidden, is based on the statement that you signed for Detective Church, does it not indicate that you made the statement concerning -- or Mitch made the statement concerning Leviticus prior to the trip down to Camp Lejeune on the 28th? A Right, it is read like that. That's a mistake on my 1649 part. I'm sorry about that. I should have had it cleared up. MR. LLOYD: If I may approach, Your Honor. THE COURT: You may. Q Now, Mrs. Whidden, if I could see the statement again. (The witness handed the exhibit to Mr. Lloyd.) Q And directing your attention to, if you can just follow along with me, "We drove --" Is this your statement, "We drove back to our house, and there was about five minutes when Ronnie and Mitch went upstairs together. And I remained downstairs and played Nintendo"? Now, that's what you said in your statement -- A Kimberly, uh-huh. Q -- "Kimberly and I"? That's what you said in your statement to Detective Church; is that right? A Yes. Q And in fact, Mrs. Whidden, it was after the chair had been assembled downstairs that anybody went upstairs to talk, that Mitch and Ronnie went upstairs to talk, was it not? A I couldn't remember if they assembled the chair downstairs or upstairs. I'm sorry. It's been too long. Q Okay. Well, is it your testimony now, Mrs. Whidden, that in fact Ronnie and your husband went upstairs after you had been home within five minutes or a longer period of 1650 time? A It was around that. But I -- it's hard to say. Q Well, did they assemble the chair upstairs or downstairs? A I cannot remember. I'm sorry, I can't remember. Q Well, do you -- Let me ask you this, Mrs. Whidden. Do you remember your son, Mitchell, playing on the chair with Ronnie -- A I don't -- Q -- spinning around? A I don't remember that. I was very sick. The only reason I don't know if it was assembled upstairs or downstairs is because the computer -- the desk was upstairs. And so, I didn't know if they had assembled it downstairs and carried it up, or just assembled it upstairs. But I cannot remember. I was very sick. Q Now, can you remember, Mrs. Whidden, whether or not Mitchell, your son, was going upstairs while Ronnie and your husband were upstairs? Do you remember that? A I can't remember. Q Do you remember having to call him back down, to - A No. Q -- not to bother them, that they were doing devotionals? A I don't remember that. 1651 MR. LLOYD: That's all I have, Your Honor. THE COURT: You may. REDIRECT EXAMINATION by MR. PANOSH: Q I'll show you now State's Number 133. Is that another copy of the same statement? A Yes, it is. Q Drawing your attention to Page 4, about three-quarters of the way down, where your statement says, "Mitch came back from talking to Ronnie," do you see that? A Yes. Q Would you review that, please. (Time was allowed for the witness.) Q What did you tell Detective Church in reference to that portion? MR. LLOYD: Well, objection, Your Honor. My. recollection is that she stated she could not remember that part. THE COURT: Overruled. A I don't remember. Q You testified earlier about what Mitch said when he came back from the base. Do you see that portion in there? A Yes. Q Okay. What did you say about that? A I said that it might -- that he said that it might have 1652 been a bad dream. Q Okay. Who said that? A Ronnie told Mitch that. MR. PANOSH: Your Honor, we'd seek to introduce State's 134 (sic), her prior statement. MR. LLOYD: Well, objection, Your Honor. She's testified at length. She's been cross-examined. That's what is the evidence in this case. The evidence in this case is not some prior statement. Even if I use it to impeach her, that's not evidence in this case. That's something that I can argue for impeachment purposes. It's not substantive evidence, Your Honor. It's not admissible. THE COURT: Objection sustained. MR. PANOSH: We only ask it be admitted to corroborate, not as substantive. MR. LLOYD: Well, it's a distinction without a difference, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. PANOSH: No further. THE COURT: You may step down, Ms. Whidden. MR. LLOYD: That's all, Your Honor. (The witness left the witness stand.)
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