(All jurors present)

THE COURT: If you'll call the next witness for the defense, please.

MR. LLOYD: Yes, sir. The defense would call Mr. Ron Kimble, Sr.

(Whereupon, the witness was first duly sworn.) RONNIE LEE KIMBLE, being first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows during DIRECT EXAMINATION by MR. LLOYD:

Q.    Mr. Kimble, if you would state your name for the record, please, sir.

A.    Ronnie Lee Kimble.

Q.    And are you senior?

A.    Just the second. I mean the first. He's the second. Excuse me.

Q.    And how are you employed?

A.    I am at the present time pastor of the Monnett

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Road Baptist Church in Julian, North Carolina.

Q.    And Ronnie is your son; is that correct?

A.    Ronnie is my son. Yes, sir.

Q.    Now, Reverend Kimble, directing your attention to the time when Ronnie was born, how old were you at that time?

A.    My wife and I got married very young. She was 15 when we got married and I was 17. Ronnie was born -­Ted had already been born. I was 18 and 16. Ted was born. And then I was 20 and my wife was 18 when Ronnie was born.

Q.    All right. And where did you-all live at that time?

A.    We lived in Mebane, North Carolina.

Q.    All right. And where did you work at that time, Mr. Kimble?

A.    I worked at -- in a mill. Universal Products. Excuse me.

Q.    Did your wife work?

A.    Universal Textured Yarns.

Q.    Did your wife work at that time?

A.    She went to work there also.

Q.    Was she working -- did she work around the time that Ronnie was born?

A.    Yes, sir.

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Q.    All right. Now, how long did you -- did you work at that mill in Mebane?

A.    I worked there till it closed down. I worked there from the time I was about 16 till -- I worked there about eight years. I must have been about

twenty- -- no. I went to work when I was 16. Must have been till I was about twenty- -- about 23, I believe it was.

Q.    And so how old would Ronnie have been at that time?

A.    When I was 23, Ronnie would have been, what, five years old.

Q.    Somewhere around three years old?

A.    Three or four years old. Yeah. Ted would have been around five.

Q.    And did -- what was your family life like back then?

A.    I loved my kids very much. I was an alcoholic.

Q.    Now -‑

A.    I began drinking when I was around 18.

Q.    When you say you were an alcoholic, how much did you drink during that time period, Mr. Kimble?

A.    I drunk every day.

Q.    Did you -- did you spend much time at home with your family?

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A.    When the kids were younger, I'd pick a fight -­not really a physical fight but an argument with my wife, and I'd go to bars and stay till about one or two o'clock in the morning. It's something I'm not proud of.

Q.    And did there come a time, Mr. Kimble, when you quit drinking?

A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    When was it?

A.    I got in church when I was about 26. I gave my life to the Lord. I was in church about a year and I backslid. I went back to drinking again for about another year. Then March 16, 1978, about 1:00 in the morning, I looked at the Lord and said Lord, I don't want to do this no more. I give my life totally to you. Lord, the only way I can do it is with you and your strength. I've not taken a drink since March 16, 1978.

Q.    And was Ronnie somewhere around the age of six or seven at that time?

A.    Yes. About six, I think it was. Or seven. 'Cause he was in the first grade. He must have been about seven.

Q.    Okay. And while Ronnie was in the first grade, how did he do in school?

A.    He did very slow. The teacher suggested that we

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hold him back because he was not able to keep up with the other children.

Q.    Now, after Ronnie's first-grade year, did there come a time when you and your family moved?

A.    Yes, sir. 1978, the fall of that year, when I surrendered my life to Christ, I said Lord, whatever you want me to do, I'll do. Wherever you want me to go to school to study your word, I'll go. And I felt God calling me to Lynchburg, Virginia, to go to the Institute of Biblical Studies where I met Dr. Falwell. Also, I studied under Dr. Hal Weatherton. And at that time we put the kids in a Christian school. And they told us the same thing the public school had told us. That they needed help. Both of them needed to be held back a year.

Q.    And was Ronnie in fact held back a year?

A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    All right. Now, Reverend Kimble, prior to Ronnie going to school, was there -- was there anything where he had a significant health problem?

A. When he was young -- right when he was about a year old, he started having convulsions. When he was little, his eyes would roll back in his head, he tried to swallow his tongue, and it scared us to death. We really had a problem with high fevers with him. One

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time his fever went up to about 108, we couldn't get it down, and we ended up taking him to Chapel Hill.

Q.    When you say you took him to Chapel Hill, what do you mean by that?

A.    The ambulance took him down there. We were afraid that he was dying. We got him down there and they bathed him down. Finally managed to get his temperature down some.

And on a Sunday -- I'll never forget one Sunday morning we got up about 7:00, and he had a fever. It was a little over 105 all day that day. We couldn't get it to go down. And we carried him to the emergency room, and they just worked with him. And finally on Monday, we carried him to a pediatrician. I can't remember her name. And she started seeing him. And she began to treat the problems that he was having with certain medications, and it began to help him. And I've never told Ronnie this, but I feel like to a certain extent that high fever has probably slowed his -­Ronnie, I'm sorry -- his thinking down some.

Q.    Slowed his thinking processes down?

A.    (Witness nodded head affirmatively)

Q.    Now, how long did you and your family stay in Lynchburg?

was there for the full two years. And I worked -- while I was in school, I worked nighttime and went to school during the daytime. I didn't get to spend much time at all with my family during that time.

Q.    And after Lynchburg, where did you and your family go?

A.    We came to Greensboro, North Carolina. We lived on Carrington Street. And that's when I began to be able to spend time with my children some. I never spent time with them up till about that time. And Ronnie must have been -- he was about in the fourth grade and Ted was about in the sixth grade, and I kind of started getting to know them about then.

Q.    Now, you said Ronnie was in the fourth grade. What was his -- what was his progress in school like at that time?

A.    He was put in special class.

Q.    All right. When you say special class, what do you mean by special class?

A.    He had to have tutoring to help him through the grade.

Q.    All right. And that was after he had been in a Christian school up in Lynchburg, but this was when you came back down to Greensboro?

A.    Yes, sir.

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Q.    Now, did you -- did Ronnie have any -- any counseling during that period of time?

A.    When Ronnie was a little older, we carried him to a personal counselor, a Christian counselor in Kernersville, to try to get him some help because his reasoning -- his mother and I talked about it. Just seemed like he couldn't reason things just right. And we carried him to try to help Ronnie through that time period in his life.

Q.    And during that -- did Ronnie receive counseling from this counselor?

A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    All right. And in terms of the relationship as they were growing up through their adolescence, both Ted and Ronnie, who was the -- I believe you had indicated Ted was born two years before Ronnie; is that right?

A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    Who was the bigger of the two children?

dominant one. And as they got older, I think Ronnie resisted that and they fought a lot. But Ted has always had a lot of charisma, as far as being more dominant.

Q.    And did he at times dominate Ronnie?

A.    Yes.

Q.    And Reverend Kimble, did they -- did they have a -- I mean how would you describe the relationship between Ted and Ronnie?

A.    They could not work together. But yet, when they did work together, Ted was always the dominant one over Ronnie.

Q.    When they were younger, when they were adolescents, did they -- did they fight?

A.    Yes, sir. I had to pull Ronnie off of Ted more than one time.

Q.    Now, you say -- you said you pulled Ronnie off of Ted more than one time?

A.    I mean I had to pull Ted off of Ronnie more than one time.

4.             Who won those fights, Reverend Kimble?

A.    Ted, of course. Ted was a lot broader than Ronnie.

Q.    Now, when you took Ronnie to the counselor, did you get any sort of specific diagnosis from the counselor as to what Ronnie's problems might have been?

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Was there any mention of attention deficit disorder?

A.    Ronnie was always very compulsive. In other words, he had a good idea one minute and the next minute he'd be on something else. And he was very high strung. And I remember when we carried him to talk to the counselor the first time -- it's kind of funny in a way. He said you can carry me to him, but you can't make me talk to him. And we carried him to Mr. Meyers' office. And we went in and sat down, waited a few minutes for him to come in, and then he come in, you know, and spoke to me and my wife, and he took Ronnie back to his office. And the next thing I know, he was looking forward to going back the next week -‑

Q.    All right.

A.    -- to talk to him.

Q.    So he participated in the counseling sessions?‑

A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    All right.

A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    And you had mentioned that one of the reasons that you took Ronnie to the counselor is because he didn't appear to be able to reason things out. Could you explain that to the members of the jury?

A.    Most people, when they stop to -- start to do something, they can reason the results of it after they

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do it. But Ronnie a lot of times would act compulsive and not reason what the outcome would be.

Q.    Now, how would you describe Ronnie's abilities as a student in junior high and high school?

A.    He was slow in school. But Ronnie -- Ted and Ronnie was always a lot different. For instance, Ted had leadership ability, was always progressing ahead, but Ronnie was physically a hard worker.

Q.    All right.

A.    He went to work mowing yards when he was about eleven years old. He bought his own bicycle and worked very hard.

Q.    All right.

A.    Very proud of him being a hard worker.

Q.    Now, how did he -- how did he treat his schoolwork?

A.    We had to make him do his schoolwork. He did not like schoolwork at all. For one thing, he -­comprehending, I think, was about fifty percent of the problem. Comprehending what was taking place in the class. And keeping his mind on what was taking place.

Q. Now, did you -- did you notice any improvement in Ronnie's ability to structure his life when he went into the Marine Corps?

A.    We noticed a great big difference. Ronnie grew

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up. He changed drastically.

Q.    And Reverend Kimble, it's been testified to earlier that Ronnie taught Sunday school at your church.

A.    Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

Q.    How did he get along with the children?

A.    Ronnie has always gotten along better with younger children and older people. He has never gotten along real well with people his own age. Seemed like -­well, the ladies that testified a few minutes ago. My wife and I was a lot like that. We were children with children, and we always related better to older people. Because most people our age were still in sports and high school. And we were married with children. We were actually children raising children.

Q.    Now, did Ronnie participate voluntarily in church activities?

A.    Yes, sir. Sure did.

Q.    Did you -- I'm sure that it was assumed or since you were the pastor at the church you expected your son to go to church?

A.    Never had to make Ronnie go to church. It's something that when we got up on Sunday morning and started getting ready for church on Sunday night or Wednesday night -- we'd go three times a week -- we'd say it's time to go to church, he'd go. We never had to

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make him, make our family or anything. It's just something we always did. When I gave my life to the Lord, it was just a way of life.

MR. LLOYD: That's all I have, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Panosh?

CROSS-EXAMINATION by MR. PANOSH:

Q.    Sir, were you here earlier in the trial when there was testimony about Ted indicating that you were an alcoholic and you had beaten the family when he was a young child?

A.    I would say I was -- Ted remembers one time in my life that I'm very ashamed of. Ted was about four years old. I came in about 1:00 one morning. Had been drinking real heavy. I never have forgotten it. My wife was holding him in her arms standing in the hallway. And we lived in a mobile home at that time. And she looked at me and made some remarks to me. I slapped her. I'll never forget. Ted said, "Mommy, that's all right. I'll take care of you. I'll take care of you, Mommy." That's the only time I ever really remember really striking her real hard.

Q.    So the information that Ted said that you beat the family, that was not correct?

A.    He may call it beating, but I whooped them when they misbehaved.

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Q.    So there was some grain of truth to that?

A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    Now, you indicated that you took Ronnie to a counselor. Was that a psychiatrist or psychologist or-‑

A.    Psychologist.

Q.    And when was that?

A.    He was still in high school when we did that. He was -- it's Joe Meyers' son which is a pastor at Kerwin Baptist Church. He had been in school and studied counseling. He came to our church. He helped us. We asked him to come to speak to our parents in our church. We had a counseling session with parents where all the parents came to church. Like on a Wednesday night, he came and he spoke to our church, and the parents at that time had a chance to ask him questions about raising children. And I met him like that. And then after that is when we carried Ronnie to see -- to see him.

Q.    And his name was Joe Meyers?

A.    No. His son. Kevin -- K-E-V-I-N -- Meyers.

Q.    Meyers?

A.    M-E-Y-E-R-S.  Yes, sir.

Q.    You say he was a psychologist?

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A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    Is he still in this area?

A.    As far as I know, he's still in Kernersville, sir. You can call Kerwin Baptist Church, if you'd like to get in touch with him. And his secretary or Joe Meyers which is the pastor can tell you how to get in touch with him.

Q.    What age was Ronnie when he was seen by Mr. Kevin Meyers?

A.    I would say in the age -- neighborhood -- I cannot remember exactly. Probably around 15 or 16.

Q.    What was the diagnosis?

A.    He -- he just said that Ronnie needed someone to talk to to let out his frustrations.

Q.    Do you have any documentation of that, sir?

A.    He would. I did not know I would be asked to discuss that in this trial or I could have got some documentation.

Q.    Of course, Ronnie would have been aware of that counseling session?

A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    And he -- when he applied to the Marine Corps, he should have made that known to them?

MR. LLOYD: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

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MR. LLOYD: Move to strike.

THE COURT: Disregard it, members of the jury.

Q.    Now, are you saying that in your opinion Ronnie Kimble has a mental disability?

A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    And that has existed even through the time that he was in the Marine Corps?

A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    And you don't have specific documentation of that, that's just your opinion?

A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    Are you saying the reason he committed this murder was because of that mental disability?

A.    Sir, I don't believe he committed the murder, so I can't answer that.

Q.    Do you feel the mental disability that you observed in your son was sufficient to cause him to commit a murder?

A.    I don't believe he committed the murder, sir.

Q.    Sir, do you feel that the mental disability that you observed in your son -‑

MR. LLOYD: Objection, Your Honor. It's been asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled. He can answer.

Q.    -- was sufficient to cause him to murder

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someone?

A.    I don't believe he did, sir.

Q.    Without passing on what you believe, sir, I'm trying to ask you whether you feel the mental disability was severe enough to cause him to commit a murder?

MR. LLOYD: Your Honor, he's asked the question three times. It's like asking him does he still beat his wife.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: I would have to say that I believe he did it, but I don't believe he did it to answer that question, sir.

Q.    Can you give the ladies and gentlemen of the jury any gauge of how severe this mental disability was that you observed?

A.    He was very slow at comprehending things. You would have to really talk to him to see what I'm talking about. When you talk to Ronnie, you ask him a question, like Mr. Panosh asked him several questions when he was on the stand and which I know you probably noticed, that it wasn't a matter of him answering yes or no. He had to explain every answer on and on and on. And that's the way Ronnie always has been. And that would say -- it's like he couldn't comprehend a "yes" or a "no" answer. He had to -- if he did say "yes," or if

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he said "no," he had to get the last word in to explain himself.

Q.    And of course in his upbringing he was taught the difference between right and wrong?

A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    Did this mental disability that you observed in your son, did that prevent him from knowing what was right from wrong?

A.    I think in some ways it did.

Q.    You think that that would prevent him from knowing that it was wrong to murder someone?

A.    Sir, I don't think he murdered someone, so I can't answer that.

Q.    Did the mental disability that you observed in your son, would that be so severe that it would prevent him from knowing that it was wrong to take someone's life?

A.    I know he knows it's wrong to take somebody's life, because I've taught him that all his life.

Q.    If you would please address, sir, the question. The question is do you feel the mental disability -‑

MR. LLOYD: He answered his question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q.    -- that you saw in your son was so severe that it would prevent him from knowing that it was wrong to

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take someone's life?

A.    I don't understand your question?

MR. LLOYD: Your Honor, he said I know he knows it's wrong because I've taught him all his life.

THE COURT: Well, if the question is phrased differently than that, then the State is entitled to ask that question on the statute of mitigating -‑

MR. LLOYD: But my point is, Your Honor, he answered the question. He answered it as directly as possible.

THE COURT: I think the State is entitled to an answer.

THE WITNESS: Ask the question again, sir.

Q.    You did observe a mental disability in your son?

A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    Did that mental disability affect his ability to determine what was right from what was wrong?

A.    To a certain -- yes, sir.

Q.    In your opinion, was that mental disability so severe that he did not know it was wrong to kill someone?

A.    I don't feel like -- I'm not -- something that major, yes, I feel like he know -- knew it would be wrong.

Q.    You said that Theodore Kimble exercised some

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dominance over Ronnie?

A.    Yes, sir. Like I said, when the kids were younger, I didn't really get to know them until we moved to Greensboro and I got out of school. And I noticed that when they were playing together out in the yard that Ted would always be the leader; Ronnie would be the follower. Whatever was done.

Q.    Did that dominance continue into their teenage years?

A.    Ted tried to continue it on through the teenage years as well as all the way up to today. And at times it seemed like he would be dominating and at times Ronnie would resist and fight back.

Q.    Are you saying that Ted Kimble was capable of convincing Ronnie Kimble to kill someone?

A.    I don't believe Ronnie Kimble killed someone, so I can't answer that.

Q.    Drawing your attention to the dominance that you observed in your son Theodore Kimble, are you saying that that dominance was sufficient to allow him to cause Ronnie Kimble to kill someone?

MR. LLOYD: Objection, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: I don't believe he killed someone.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: So I can't answer that.

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Q.    Could you address the degree of the dominance that you observed?

A.    I believe that -- as far as dominance goes, that Ted overpowered Ronnie.

Q.    And could he overpower him so much that he could cause Ronnie to do something that was wrong?

A.    I believe he could.

Q.    And could he overpower him so much that he could cause Ronnie to commit a murder?

A.    No, sir.

Q.    You indicated that -- let me ask you this, sir: Do you know whether or not your son was evaluated by a psychiatrist in the Marine Corps?

A.    No, sir. I don't.

Q.    You indicated that you saw traits in your son which you described as compulsive, that is, that Ronnie Kimble was compulsive; is that correct?

A.    Yes, sir.

Q.    Are you saying that he was so compulsive that he could just choose to kill someone without thinking about it?

MR. LLOYD: Objection, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: I don't believe he killed someone so --

THE COURT: Sustained.

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MR. LLOYD: You don't have to answer that.

Q.    Would you address how compulsive you observed him to be?

A.    Well, let me give you an illustration. Suppose one day you decide you're going to do one thing, the next day -- for a living, the next day you decide you're going to do something else for a living, and you don't take time to do either one.

Q.    Do you feel that he was so compulsive that he would do something that was wrong?

MR. LLOYD: Well, object, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: You mean -- explain what you mean by that?

Q.    Based upon your observations of your son and your conclusion that his behavior was compulsive, do you feel that he was so compulsive that he would do something wrong?

A.    Do I feel like he would be so compulsive to do something wrong? If he was following somebody else's leadership, perhaps.

Q.    Are you indicating that Theodore Kimble could have caused him to create this -- to commit this murder?

A.    I don't believe he committed the murder, sir, so I can't answer that.

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Q.    When you said that he was so compulsive that he would follow someone else's leadership, do you feel that Theodore Kimble -- were you indicating that Theodore Kimble probably caused him to commit this murder?

A.    I don't believe he committed the murder.

MR. LLOYD: Object, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q.    Would this compulsiveness that you saw in your son, would that cause him to commit a murder?

MR. LLOYD: Objection, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS: No, sir.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: I don't understand what you're saying? 'Cause you asked me if I thought this compulsion would cause him to commit a murder. Like I've said over and over, I don't believe he committed this murder. I don't want you to twist my words, sir.

Q.    Would you like to answer the question again then?

A.    Ask me the question again.

Q.    Do you feel that the compulsiveness that you saw in your son was sufficient to cause him to commit a murder?

A.    I don't believe he committed the murder.

Q.    Relating your answer now to the compulsiveness

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that you observed in your son, do you feel that there was some character trait which you've described as being compulsive that was so strong in your son that he could commit a murder?

MR. LLOYD: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

THE WITNESS: I told you I don't believe he could commit a murder.

Q.    Would the answer to that question be "no" then?

A.    He could not have committed a murder.

Q.    And you have an impression about Theodore Kimble; is that correct?

A.    He's my oldest son.

Q.    And is your opinion of Theodore Kimble the same? That he could not have been involved in this murder?

MR. LLOYD: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. PANOSH: No further questions. Thank you, sir.

MR. LLOYD: You may come down, Mr. Kimble.

THE COURT: Would you like to stand and stretch,

members of the jury. Call your next witness, please.