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Ronnie Lee Kimble 

                                                  

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Louie Mitchell Whidden, Witness for the State


 

MR. PANOSH: Mr. Whidden, please.

LOUIE MITCHELL WHIDDEN, JR., being first duly sworn, testified as follows during DIRECT EXAMINATION by MR. PANOSH:

Q    Would you state your name, please.

A    Louie Mitchell Whidden, Jr.

Q    And your occupation, please?

A    I am a Baptist pastor.

Q    Are you an ordained minister?

A    Yes, sir, I am.

Q    When were you ordained?

A    I was ordained on May the 17th of this year.

Q    And your congregation is in Florida; is that correct?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Drawing your attention to the period of time prior to


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working as a minister in Florida, where were you, sir?

A    I was in school at Lynchburg, Virginia.

Q    And prior to being in school in Lynchburg, Virginia, where were you, sir?

A    I was at Camp Lejeune Marine base.

Q    And were you an enlisted man in the United States Marine Corps?

A    Yes, sir, I was.

Q    When did you enter the Marine Corps, please?

A    August the 19th of '94.

Q    And you had a four-year commitment; is that correct?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And what was your assignment there, your original assignment in the Marine Corps?

A    I was a TOW gunner in the infantry.

Q    And in the course of your duties there, you went through basic infantry training; is that correct?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Toward the end of your four-year commitment, did you receive a transfer to the chaplain's corps?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    Would you explain that, please.

A    I requested a transfer to be out to the chaplain corps for the last six months, to assist them, so that I could learn more about what chaplains do in the Marine Corps.


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Q   You were not a minister while you were in the Marine Corps; is that correct?

A    Yes.

Q    And what were your duties during the period of time that you were with the chaplain's corps?

A    Mostly clerical, just clerical type activities, and taking care of whatever cleaning or clerical activities that the chaplain would ask me to do.

Q    Did there come a time in the period of months when you were with the chaplain's corps when you met the defendant, Ronnie Kimble?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how you met him.

A    Shortly after I was detached out to the chaplain corps, I met Ronnie Kimble. He would deliver supplies out to the chapel where I was working weekly. He would bring them out there and give them to us.

Q    And during the period of time that you knew him, what was your relationship?

A    We were somewhat coworkers and friends.

Q    How frequently did you see him?

A    About once a week.

Q    Under what circumstances would you see him?

A    I would see him when he would bring supplies out to the


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chaplain's office. And occasionally, I would see him in the midweek, and we would all meet together at the main chaplain's base.

Q    And other than associating with him in the course of your duties, did you do things with him as a friend?

A    No, sir.

Q    Did there come a time when he came to your facility -­Where was your facility, to start with?

A    It was at Courthouse Bay at Camp Lejeune, towards the back of the base.

Q Did there come a time when he came to your facility and you and he spoke in reference to the death of his sister-in-law?

A    Yes, sir, he did. We would go back in the back recreational facility from time to time when he would come out, and he would talk to me about the case and say that they were accusing his brother of things, and he would discuss it with me.

Q    During those periods of time when he discussed it with you, did he give you any details about the case?

A    Yes, sir, he did.

Q    What do you recall him telling you?

A    He told me that they were accusing his brother of having some involvement in his wife's death, and that they were questioning him, to try to get to his brother.


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Q    Did he give you details of the actual death?

A    Yes, sir. He told me that they had a -- he told me that they had a witness that saw a car that was similar to his leaving the scene of the accident. And I recall him mentioning something of a large tool box being moved in the house. He would basically go over things with me that would come up in the case, because he told me he was trying to figure out for his self who actually committed the murder.

Q    Now, when you eventually left the Marine Corps, where did you go?

A    I went to Lynchburg, Virginia, to attend college.

Q    And what school is that?

A    Liberty University.

Q    And what type of studies were you pursuing?

A    Pastoral ministries.

Q    And did you go there in August of '96; is that correct?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    When you left the Marine Corps, did you have any further contact with Ronnie Kimble?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    When was that?

A    Sometime later after I left, he called and -- he called me on the phone and expressed interest that he would like to come up and visit the school.

Q    Between the time you left the Marine Corps, and the


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time you got that initial phone call from Ronnie Kimble, did you have any other contact with him?

A    No, sir.

Q    When you left the Marine Corps, had you formed any type of an opinion as to his guilt or innocence in regards to the death of his sister-in-law?

A    Yes, sir. I thought he was innocent at that time.

Q    You were living at Liberty University on the campus itself; is that correct?

A    No, sir.

Q    Where were you living?

A    I was living at a townhouse about 10 minutes from the school.

Q    And who were you living there with?

A    My wife and two children.

Q    When Ronnie Kimble called you, did he call you at that townhouse?

A    Yes, sir, he did.

Q    And would you relate to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what you recall of that conversation.

A    He called me to ask questions about the school, because he said that his father went to the school, and that he was interested in coming and pursuing the work of the ministry, by attending the same school that his father did and that I was going to attend.


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Q    What, if anything, did you tell him?

A    I invited him to come up and stay with my family and I for a couple of days, while he checked out the school and to sit in through classes with me.

Q    Were any definite plans made?

A    Not at that time.

Q    Did there come a time on or about January 20-- or prior to January 24th of 1997, when you received another telephone call?

A    Yes, sir, there did.

Q    Would you tell the jury about that.

A    He called and said he would be traveling near the area, and that it would be a good time for him to come up and possibly check out the school, if he could get away and had extra time to get over there.

Q    And during that conversation, were plans made for him to visit you?

A    There was no specific day scheduled, just a tentative that he would come up soon.

Q    Did there come a time when you received another telephone call?

A    Yes, sir. He called me from the -- from the campus and let me know he was in town and he would -- that it would be a good time for him to come visit.

Q    And what, if any, arrangements were made?


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A    We agreed that I would go meet him at the campus and then he could follow me to my house and stay with us a few days.

Q    Did you do that?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    And do you recall what the date was when they arrived or what the day of the week was?

A    No, sir, I do not.

Q    When they arrived, was it before or after dark?

A    It was after dark.

Q    And when they arrived, who arrived at your home?

A    Ronnie Kimble and his wife.

Q    On the evening that they arrived at your home, what did you do?

A    We got acquainted with one another, talked for a little while, and then went straight to bed.

Q    Went straight to --

A    Went straight to bed.

Q    Were there plans made for the following morning?

A    Yes, sir, there was. He had planned to go to class with me in the morning.

Q    And what time was your class in the morning?

A    8:00 o'clock.

Q    Now, how big was the townhouse that you were occupying? A    It was two bedroom, one and a half bath, small


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townhouse.

Q    And were the bedrooms up or down?

A    The bedrooms were upstairs.

Q    And what accommodations or arrangements were made to allow the Kimbles to stay with you that night?

A    They slept upstairs in the children's room, on a mattress on the floor, while my children slept in our room with us.

Q    Tell the jury what happened the next morning.

A    The next morning, we all got up, and Ronnie and his wife went to school with me in the morning and set through class.

Q    You said it started at 8:00. How long did the classes go?

A    They went from 8:00 to noon, with breaks in between.

Q    And did Mr. and Mrs. Ronnie Kimble stay with you throughout that time period, from 8:00 till noon?

A    No, sir, they did not.

Q    Do you know where they went?

A    Yes, sir. They left to go grab something to eat and -­actually, we left together at one point, to go try to meet with the chancellor of the school, so that he could speak with him, and the chancellor was not available, so I went back to class, and they went out to see the campus and to grab something to eat.


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Q    Did you get together again around lunchtime that day?

A    Yes, sir, we did.

Q    Would you tell the jury about that, please.

A    We -- I rode into the campus with them that morning, so we rode back to the house at that time. And then they left shortly after, to go back up to the school, to try to meet with the chancellor once again.

Q    When you say "they left," who left?

A    Kim and Ronnie.

Q    And did they come back later in that afternoon?

A    Yes, sir, they did.

Q    Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what you remember about the events of that afternoon, going into the evening.

A    We set around the house, played Nintendo awhile, and later on, we went out to eat that evening.

Q    Before you went out to eat, do you remember anything specific occurring?

A    I remember a phone call that was made. Kim called her mother, I believe it was, to tell her that she had met with the chancellor of the school, and to let her know how that went.

Q    Do you remember anything else about that particular phone call?

A    Yes. The phone call was cut short, because her mother


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was on the line with an investigator or detective of some sort. And Ronnie Kimble got very upset about it. I remember him being very mad about that.

Q    Eventually, were they able to contact Mrs. Kimble's mother?

A    Yes, they were. I believe she called back to our house, and that's when they talked, and they discussed the -- they discussed apparently the subject of the phone call that was made to her mother by the detectives or investigators, whoever it was that had called them about this case.

Q    After that phone call, did there come a time when you went to dinner?

A    Yes, there did.

Q    Do you remember where you went to dinner?

A    Yes. We went to Country Cooking.

Q    And when you say "we," who are you talking about?

A    My children, my wife, Ronnie and Kim Kimble.

Q    In the course of that dinner, was there certain conversation that you recall?

A    Yes, there was. We talked, and Ronnie was talking about the ministry and expressing an interest in going into the ministry, but he was making excuses and made the statement that his past was haunting him, that he thought some things in his past might prevent him from going into


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the ministry, and said he would like to discuss that with me later.

Q    Do you recall what happened after dinner?

A    Yes. We went to a -- we went to Best to shop. We did some shopping. And then we drove back to home.

Q    What occurred when you and your family and Ronnie and Kimberly Kimble arrived at your home?

A    We went inside and assembled a chair that I had bought at the store, an office chair. And shortly after, Ronnie said he needed to talk to me about some things, and asked if we could go upstairs away from the girls, to talk.

Q    What did you do?

A    We went directly upstairs, into my bedroom.

Q    What occurred in your bedroom?

A    Ronnie Kimble told me that he'd killed his sister-in-law.

Q    Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury the details of that conversation.

A    We went in and set down at the bed, and he said he had some things that he wanted to tell me, but he was afraid to tell me, because he thought the things that he would tell me would come back to haunt me. And he wanted to know if he was sure -- if I was sure that he could talk to me. And then we prayed together, and he proceeded to tell me that he killed his sister-in-law. I asked him why he killed his


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sister-in-law. And he told me that he did it out of greed, and that his brother would pay him to do it.

He also told me that -- he asked me if I could do something with the money, if I could possibly give it to the university or use it in some way to put it to use at God's work. And I told him that he should not do that, that that was blood money, that I didn't want it. And he told me that he -- he wanted to know if it was -- if it would send him to hell if he killed his self. I told him that he would not go to hell for killing his self, but that he should not think of such things and that he should turn his self in.

Q    What, if anything, did he respond, when you suggested that he turn himself in?

A    He said that he was not going to turn his self in, that he would die first.

Q    Did you have further discussions with him?

A    Yes. We talked and he asked me -- he asked me if I would like him to leave. I told him I thought that would be best. Then he asked me if I thought any less of him. I told him I didn't know what to think of him. And we then decided together that we would find an excuse for him to leave that night. And so, we were going to go down and look at The Weather Channel, to see if the weather would be a valid excuse for him to leave, without his wife getting suspicious of him leaving so abruptly. And we went down and


1421

looked at The Weather Channel, and the weather wasn't bad, so we agreed that he could stay the night, provided that he left first thing in the morning.

Q    Did you have a conversation with him about how this was affecting his relationship with God?

A    Yes, we did.

Q    Would you tell the jury about that, please.

A    I told him that in order to be right with God, he would have to turn his self in, and have to confess to what he's done. He then told me that he had already asked God's forgiveness, and that it was okay -- it would be okay, because it was her time to go anyway. And I said, "Well, at least you can't lie. You're lying to the people that are asking you. And you know that's wrong." And he said, "But they never have directly asked me if I did it."

Q    In your discussion, do you know what he meant when he said it was her time to go?

MR. HATFIELD: Objection to what he meant.

THE COURT: Overruled. Well, sustained as to what he meant.

Q    Based upon your discussion, what was he indicating when he said it was her time to go?

MR. HATFIELD: Objection. That's exactly the same question.

MR. PANOSH: Let me rephrase that.


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THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    Did he say anything else in that topic?

MR. HATFIELD: Objection. He's already told the witness what to say.

THE COURT: Overruled.

You may answer.

A    He said that -- what he said was that it was her time to go, and that she would have died either way, because basically when your number's up, your number's up and that's it.

Q    After you talked about the possibility of him leaving early, what occurred?

A    We went downstairs and checked The Weather Channel, and decided that they could stay till morning.

Q    Why was that?

A    I would have asked him to leave that night, but I did not want to upset him, I did not want to make him angry, because in light of what he had just told me.

Q    What occurred that night?

A    We all went up to bed shortly after, and I laid awake all night, while my family slept, until morning.

Q    What occurred the next day?

A    The next day, after they were awake, they left.

Q    And did anything occur after they left your home? A    Yes. I moped around the house awhile, because I was


1423

completely sick over what he had told me. And my wife asked me why they had left so soon, and I couldn't even talk about it. I just told her I didn't want to talk about it. And finally, she asked me if he had killed his sister-in-law, and I had told her that he did, and that I had to turn him in.

Q    What action did you take in that regard?

A    I called my sister, to ask her to come down and arrange a meeting with myself and Jerry Falwell, to get some advice. And I also asked her to bring down her handgun, so that I could have home protection.

Q    And did your sister come down?

A    Yes, she did.

Q    And did she in fact help you arrange that meeting?

A    Yes, she did.

Q    When did that meeting occur?

A    That night, at a basketball game.

Q    Would you describe that for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please.

A We went into the basketball game and sat down and watched the game by the Falwells and their family, and afterwards, I spoke with Dr. Falwell about this.

Q    What did you tell him?

A    I told him that the young man that had came and talked to him the day before, Ronnie Kimble, had confessed that he


1424

had killed his sister-in-law, to me. And I asked him what my moral and legal obligations were, in light of what he had told me.

Q    And did he give you advice?

A    Yes, sir, he did.

Q    And what was that advice?

MR. HATFIELD: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HATFIELD: It's just hearsay.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A    He then told me that I had no moral obligation, unless they could provide protection for my family, but that I should speak with a lawyer, his son, about my legal obligations.

Q    And did he arrange that meeting?

A    Yes, he did.

Q    And what did you do after meeting with Dr. Falwell?

A    I spoke with Dr. Falwell's son, which is a lawyer. And he said that he would look on the Internet and try to –­

MR. HATFIELD: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    Without stating what Dr. Falwell's son said to you, did he arrange for further meetings with you? Did Dr. Falwell

MR. HATFIELD: Objection to leading.


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MR. PANOSH: Let me rephrase that.

Q    Did Jerry Falwell, Jr., the attorney, arrange for further meetings?

A    Yes, we did.

Q    After that, what did you do?

A    After that, I went and left the ball game, and went home and grabbed a few items and went and got a hotel for the night.

Q    Who went to the motel?

A    My family and I.

(Mr. Panosh showed an exhibit to Mr. Hatfield.)
MR. PANOSH: May I approach?

THE COURT: You may.

Q    I show you now State's 117. Do you recognize that?

A    Yes, I do.

Q    And is that a receipt for the hotel for that evening?

A    Yes, it is.

Q    And do you recognize the handwriting thereon?

A    Yes, I do.

Q    Was that your wife's?

A    Yes, it is.

Q    Why was it that you saw fit to take a motel room that night?

A    Because Ronnie Kimble then knew where we lived and how to get to our house, and I wanted my family to be somewhere


1426

where he knew we weren't at -- somewhere where he couldn't find us.

Q    What happened the next day?

A    The next day, we left the hotel, went to church that evening, and then I believe we returned to our home.

Q    Did there come a time when you left Lynchburg and went to Camp Lejeune?

A    Yes. Directly after, we decided that it would be best to go down and try to talk him into turning his self in again at Camp Lejeune.

Q    Would you describe how you went to Camp Lejeune.

A    My family and I packed up and went down to Camp Lejeune for a couple of days and stayed with friends, so that I could talk to him, try to convince him to turn his self in one last time.

Q    Did you stay on the base or off the base?

A    Off the base.

Q    Did there come a time when you came in -- when you contacted Ronnie Kimble?

A    Yes, there did.

Q    How did you do that?

A I went up to the chaplain base on base and spoke with them and asked where he was, and then went over to talk to him at the chapel he was stationed at.

Q    When you found him, where was he?


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A    He was in the main Protestant chapel.

Q    And what was he doing?

A    Cleaning and vacuuming the floor.

Q    Did you have a further conversation with him?

A    Yes, I did.

Q    Tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how and where that took place. A    He left his cleaning and we went out to his truck, in the parking lot, and set in his truck, while I tried to convince him to turn his self in.

Q    Would you describe that conversation, please.

A    Yes. I tried to convince him to turn his self in, asked him to, and he said -- and then he tried to back out of it, by saying that maybe it was just a bad dream, that all of this may have never happened. And I told him that if his brother tried to give him some money, then he would know that he did it.

Q    Were you able to convince him to turn himself in?

A    No, I wasn't.

Q    Did you have any further contact with him after that?

A    No, I didn't.

Q    Did you return to Lynchburg?

A    Yes, I did.

Q    And when you returned to Lynchburg, did you consult with an attorney, specifically Mr. Yeatts?


1428

A    Yes, I did.

Q    And what did Mr. Yeatts tell you?

MR. HATFIELD: Objection.

MR. PANOSH: He'll be testifying.

THE COURT: Members of the jury, this is being offered for the purpose of corroborating a later witness's testimony. It'll be for you to say and determine whether it does in fact so corroborate that witness's testimony. It's not being offered for the truth or falsity of the statement, but whether in fact the statement was made on that occasion to this witness.

Q    What advice did Mr. Yeatts give you?

A    He told me that it would be a good idea if I had some sort of agreement. So they then reached an agreement with, I assume the District Attorney's Office down here, stating that I would -- I would have police protection, in the event that I -- in any information that I gave them that they could use, I would have police protection if I needed it.

Q    And thereafter, on February the 3rd of 1997, did he arrange for you to meet with agents of the State Bureau of Investigation and the Guilford County Sheriff's Department?

A    Yes, he did.

Q    Do you recognize Agent Pendergrass and Detective Church as the individuals you met with? (Indicated.)

A    Yes, I do.


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Q    And also present during that meeting was Mr. Yeatts; is that correct?

A    Yes.

(Mr. Panosh showed an exhibit to Mr. Hatfieldthat over; is that correct?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Are those the statements you gave on February the 3rd, in the presence of your attorney, to Detective Church and Agent Pendergrass?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Now, after you gave those statements, what did you do?

A    I withdrew from school, or I told them I was leaving at school, and we packed our things and put all of our furniture in a storage shed and moved out of state.

Q    Why did you do that?

A    In fear for our lives.

Q    Did there come a time when you returned to Liberty University in Lynchburg?

A    Yes, there did.

Q    And tell the jury about that, please.

A    After I was down there about six months or so, the --


1430

Ronnie Kimble was in jail, so I came back up to Lynchburg, to finish school.

Q    And how many semesters did you go to school at Liberty University?

A    Three.

Q    Were you able to finish your program?

A    No, sir.

Q    And would you briefly explain that.

A    I was not able to finish my program, because it was a four-year program -- or excuse me, a four-semester program, that takes two years, and I missed the semester that I needed to finish in that six-month period that I left.

Q    And thereafter -- after you completed the studies you could, where did you go?

A    To Florida.

Q    And that's when you became an ordained minister; is that correct?

A    Yes, sir.

MR. PANOSH: No further. Thank you, sir. MR. HATFIELD: Is that all?

MR. PANOSH: That's all. Thank you.

MR. HATFIELD: Thank you.

Do you want me to go ahead, Judge?

THE COURT: Let's let the jury stretch. Take a stretch, if you'd like.


1431

(Time was allowed.)

THE COURT: How long are you going to be with the witness, Mr. Hatfield? Are you going to be examining the witness?

MR. HATFIELD: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: How long will it take, sir? Do you have any idea?

MR. HATFIELD: I'm sorry. I truly don't know, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Let's just go ahead and take our afternoon break. It'll be a 15-minute recess at this point. (The jury left the courtroom at 2:55 p.m.)

THE COURT: You may step down, Mr. Whidden. (The witness left the witness stand.)

THE COURT: Court will be in recess 15 minutes. (A recess was taken at 2:55 p.m.)

(Court reconvened at 3:14 p.m. The defendant was present. The jury was not present.)

THE COURT: Come back to the witness stand, please, Mr. Whidden.

(The witness returned to the witness stand.)

(The jury entered the courtroom at 3:15 p.m.)

THE COURT: You may begin your cross-examination, Mr. Hatfield.

MR. HATFIELD: All right. Thank you, Your Honor.


1432

CROSS-EXAMINATION by MR. HATFIELD:

Q    Mr. Whidden, you met Ronnie Kimble while you were attached to the chaplain's department at Camp Lejeune; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And that was within approximately five to six months of the -- of your release date from the Marine Corps; is that correct?

A    Yes, sir.

Q And as I understand it, you were released from the Marine Corps in the middle of August of that particular year; is that correct?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Mr. Whidden, in connection with your academic and attendance records at Liberty Bible Institute, I believe that the term that you -- the first term that you completed there began on July 1, '96, and ended on December 31, '96; is that correct?

A    Around those dates.

Q    What I'm asking you is, my understanding is, that semester began on July 1, but I understand you didn't get out of the Marine Corps until the middle of August. Can you explain that?

A    I don't remember the exact dates that that semester began. I know that I got out of the Marines on August the


1433

19th, and that's when I was officially released. I do not recall whether or not I took a period of leave. I may have taken leave that I'd saved up. I do not recall.

Q    Okay. So what you clearly recall is, your release date from the Marine Corps, obviously?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And that was August 19th?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    But you may have accumulated leave that allowed you to go and begin your studies at Liberty a little early, before your official release from the Marine Corps; is that what you're telling me?

A    I'm not sure.

Q    Okay.

A    It's possible.

Q    But if you went to Liberty as early as July 1, then the period that you knew Ronnie Kimble would be much shorter than what you described a little while ago, wouldn't it?

A    I don't understand the question, sir.

Q    Well, if the -- I believe the '96 fall semester at Liberty began on July 1st and concluded on December 31st, and I know that you completed that.

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And I'm just asking you, were you in fact in Lynchburg as early as July 1, 1996, so that you could complete that


1434

first semester at Liberty Bible Institute?

A    I'm sorry, sir. I don't remember the exact dates.

Q    Okay. In any event, you do recall that you completed the program, that first program -- that first semester, got all of your course credits and everything, didn't you?

A    Completed the first semester, yes, sir.

Q    And then the second semester began on January 13, 1997, didn't it?

A    I don't recall the dates again, sir.

Q    And do you remember what day you withdrew from the school?

A    I didn't officially withdraw from the school.

Q    You just packed up and left and then notified them?

A I discussed it with the dean of the Bible Institute, and then I left, and I withdrawed at a later date, when I came back up to get my grades straightened back out.

Q    So if the records indicate that you withdrew on January 5th, that does not necessarily pinpoint the day that you actually left?

A    It may. What happened was, I did not officially withdraw, due to time, I did not officially withdraw with the registrar's office, and I left and went to -- went to Florida. And when I came back up, I had to get a note stating the reason I left and when I left, and then I assumed they backdated my withdrawal.


1435

Q    Okay. So the fact is -- and I don't mean to suggest anything negative -- you simply left Lynchburg with your wife and children, and then took care of official withdrawals from the school and other things like that later; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Now, assuming that you were actually enrolled in your first semester at Bible college from July 1, can you recall when you first met Ronnie Kimble?

A    I first met Ronnie Kimble shortly after I went to the chaplain's department.

Q    Do you know when that was?

A    No, sir, I'm sorry. I don't recall the dates.

Q There's a statement that you made on February 3, 1997, that would -- if you looked at that and -- would it refresh your recollection?

A    I recall that I met him about five or six months before I got out, because that was when I -- five or six months previous to August 19th, because that's when I went over to the chaplain corps.

Q    Five or six months previous to August 19th?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    All right. Now, August is the eighth month of the year, so if you subtract five months from that, you go back to the third month of the year, which is March, isn't it?


1436

A    Yes.

Q    So are you saying that you probably met Ronnie Kimble around March of 1996?

A    Sometime in that time frame. I don't remember exact date, but in that time frame.

Q    Now, when you met Ronnie Kimble, you and he became friends; would that be the right word to describe it?

A    Yes, sir.

Q But I think you said a little while ago that you didn't socialize with him in any way or anything like that; is that correct?

A    We weren't close friends, we were acquaintances and friends. We --

Q    You were married and he was married; is that right?

A    Yes.

Q    And you had two children at that time?

A    Yes.

Q    Can you remember your -- the dates of birth of your children, so you can give me an accurate answer to how many children you had? You met him in March of 1996. How many children did you have in March of 1996?

A    At that time, I believe I only had one.

Q    And of course, you would have had your hands full with a wife and kid at Camp Lejeune. Did you know anything about Ronnie's marital status at that time?


1437

A    Yes, sir. Sometime after we met, he told me he was married. I remember, because I saw a picture of his wife and him on the desk.

Q    Now, prior to January of 1997, when you received a visit from Ronnie and his wife, you had never actually met Ronnie's wife, had you?

A    No, sir.

Q    And in turn, your wife had never met Ronnie or his wife, had she?

A    No, sir.

Q    Now, did you know that Ronnie's wife basically lived in Julian, North Carolina, and not in the Camp Lejeune area?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    So I take it that the reason you didn't become social friends was just because you were married and he was married and your paths didn't cross in that way; is that right? A    I can't say the reason we didn't become close friends. My wife and I didn't have a large social life with many friends.

Q    Did you ever talk to Ronnie about activities that he engaged in while he was in -- during regular duty, that is, not on the weekends around Camp Lejeune? Did he tell you any of his activities?

A    Can you elaborate on the question, please.

Q    Well, you were getting to be friends with him, even


1438

though your wives weren't friends. Did Ronnie tell you any activities that he engaged in?

A    Yes, he did.

Q    What did he tell you he did?

A    He said he liked to fish.

Q    Did he tell you anything else about his activities?

A    That's about all I recall.

Q    Did Ronnie tell you anything about donating plasma and receiving token payments when you give plasma?

A    I don't recall.

Q    I'm sorry. Someone was coughing. What was your answer?

A    I don't recall, sir.

Q    Did Ronnie Kimble tell you about going out with friends of his and looking for scrap brass and other semivaluable metals?

A    I don't recall.

Q He didn't tell you anything like that? At the time that you knew Ronnie before you withdrew from the Marine Corps, did you know what kind of motor vehicle he drove?

A    Yes, sir. He drove a truck.

Q    Is that -- are you basing that on your visit to him in January, after you talked to him about Patricia's death, or are you basing that on what you knew between March and August of 1996?


1439

A    I knew that before, because I had rode with him in his truck, we were moving some furniture for the --

Q    Did he bring -- when he went on his rounds around the various chaplain offices, did he drive his truck or did he drive a Marine vehicle?

A    He drove a Marine vehicle.

Q    Now, at one point, you said that you saw him about once a week. Is that accurate?

A    Once to twice a week, roughly.

Q    So if you were up at Liberty Bible College in July, and if you met him in March, that would have been approximately a five-month period, wouldn't it?

A    That sounds accurate.

Q    But didn't you say on a prior occasion that it was a couple of months before he mentioned anything to you about the trouble that was going on in Greensboro, that he was worried about?

A    I don't recall whether I said that or not.

Q    In any event, he didn't just start talking about investigations of his sister's (sic) death in Greensboro the first time you ever met him, did he?

A    I'm sure he wouldn't have.

Q    Well, it's important that you remember what happened at the time, so that this jury can decide.

A    Yes, sir.


1440

Q    Did Ronnie tell you on more than one occasion that there was an investigation of his sister's (sic) death going on?

A    Yes, sir, he did tell me on more than one occasion.

Q    And can you tell us how many occasions he told you that?

A    I -- that would be hard to guess, sir. You're correct in stating that he didn't tell me that right away. But we would talk about it on occasion, and I would -- I -- it would be hard for me to guess how many occasions he talked to me about that.

Q    You could not guess sitting here today how many times he talked to you about that?

A    I don't think so.

Q Well, now, I know that you didn't socialize with him, and I understand that you were married, but have you ever been out with him in public, say at a mall or a restaurant or a bar or anything like that?

A    Yes, sir. I believe on one occasion, we had lunch together, just off the base, during our lunch break.

Q    You have never seen Ronnie Kimble demonstrate any violence to a person, have you?

A    No, sir, I haven't.

Q    And I know you're both good Christians and both married men. There was no fighting during the period of time you


1441

knew Ronnie, was there?

A    Between us?

Q    Well, you never observed Ronnie engage in a fight with anybody or anything like that, did you?

A    I saw him engage in an argument one time.

Q    And was that with one of his co-Marines?

A    It was with a Navy personnel.

Q    And where was that?

A    That was at the -- at the base chaplain's office.

Q    You didn't see any violence displayed, did you?

A    No, sir.

Q    Did Ronnie Kimble ever let you know that he possessed any weapons while you knew him at Camp Lejeune?

A    No, sir.

Q    Did he have a pistol?

A    I don't know.

Q    You have no reason to think he did, do you?

A    No.

Q    He never told you he did, did he?

A    Not that I recall.

Q    And he never showed you one, did he?

A    No.

Q    And you -- he wasn't interested in weapons of mass destruction and all of that stuff, was he?

A    Not that I recall. Most -- it could have came up in a


1442

conversation, but not that I recall.

Q    You can't remember it, can you?

A    I remember one conversation that was out of the ordinary.

Q    And tell us about that.

A    We were sitting around talking, as Marines do often, about if there was a wartime, if we were actually in war, could we kill someone, if we had to. And the reason this sticks out in my mind was, there was debate, some said they could, some said they thought it would be hard, but Ronnie Kimble looked at me and said that he knows that he could kill someone, if he had to.

Q    And that's the training that every Marine receives, isn't it?

A    Yes, sir, it is.

Q    And you received it, too, didn't you?

A    Yes, sir, it is.

Q    How many people were present for that discussion?

A    There were roughly four of us standing around there.

Q    Was it part of a discussion in the chaplain's office or something like that?

A    Yes, sir, it was.

Q    And do you remember when that was?

A    I don't remember any exact dates.

Q    But it stuck in your mind, didn't it?


1443

A    Yes, sir, it did stick in my mind.

Q    You didn't really have to think about it to remember that just now, did you?

A    No, sir.

Q    Now, you said that there were many occasions, you couldn't guess how many, when he alluded to the arrest -- I mean the investigation in Greensboro of Patricia's death; is that right?

MR. PANOSH: Objection. That was not his testimony.

Q    Did you say that --

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HATFIELD: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt.

THE COURT: You may rephrase it.

MR. HATFIELD: Yeah. Thank you, Your Honor.

Q    Didn't you say a minute ago that there were quite a few occasions when he brought up the subject of an investigation of Patricia's death in Greensboro, so that you could not guess how many times he brought it up?

A    If I had to guess, I would say under 10.

Q    Under 10?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Do you have to guess, or if you really think about it, can you remember how many times?


1444

A    No, sir, I can't remember how many times.

Q    You know that, if you knew him five weeks -- I mean five months, and there are four weeks in each month, that there might have been 20 weeks at most that you and he were acquainted; isn't that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q And you know he didn't bring this stuff up right away, so the first few weeks, there was no discussion; isn't that fair to say?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    So there maybe were 15 weeks that you knew him when he might have -- you would have seen him once a week or perhaps twice a week; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    So being fair in estimating, you probably never even laid eyes on the man more than 25, 30 times; isn't that right?

A    That sounds accurate.

Q    And you didn't talk about his problems with investigators in Greensboro every time after he first brought it up, did you?

A    No, sir, we didn't.

Q    And there were times when other people were around, and that kind of thing wouldn't necessarily come up anyway; isn't that right?


1445

A    Yes, sir.

Q    So out of 25 possible times, making allowances for some number of times that there was no discussion, how many times do you actually think you and he had private conversations about his concerns about this investigation?

MR. PANOSH: Objection. He's answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A    Again, I couldn't make that statement accurately, except to say it's safe to say it was under 10.

Q    All right. Now, you had a piece of paper in front of you that indicates that you made a statement to the investigators, Mr. Church over here, and Mr. Pendergrass, right behind Mr. Church. You know those gentlemen, don't you?

A    Yes, I do.

Q     You've talked to them this morning, haven't you? A    Yes, sir.

Q    And probably yesterday; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And you talked to them on other occasions, haven't you?

A    Yes, sir, I have.

Q    Among Mr. Church and Mr. Pendergrass and Mr. Panosh, you've discussed this case quite a bit, haven't you?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Well, then, why is it so hard for you to remember the


1446

details when you're in here in front of the jury?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    Do you recall the paper -- Will you please tell me what the number is on that paper that you've got in front of you.

A    130.

Q    130?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Have you -- I believe you've told Mr. Panosh already, you've had a chance to read 130 before, haven't you?

A    Yes, sir, I have.

Q    Now, is 130 an accurate summary of what you stated concerning this case?

A    Yes, sir, it's basically accurate.

Q    Now, February 3rd was within one week of the time that you say that Ronnie Kimble told you he killed Patricia, wasn't it?

A    Yes.

Q    So, obviously, whatever he said to you, and whatever you said to him, it would have been fresher in your mind then than at any other time, wouldn't it?

A    Yes, sir, it would.

Q    Now, will you look at Page 2 of the exhibit that you have in front of you, 130, and I'll ask you to look at the


1447

first three lines on -- at the top of that page. Do you see that, those lines, or the second line and the third line and part of the fourth line, do you see that, on Page 2?

A    Could you repeat the lines, please, sir.

Q    Yeah. The second, third and fourth lines on Page 2, do you see those?

A    Of which paragraph?

Q    Of the top paragraph, at the very top of the page.

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Do you see where it says, "... Whidden stated, he was befriended by Kimble and recalls on one occasion Kimble telling Whidden about the death of Kimble's sister-in-law"? Do you see that?

A    Yes, sir, I do see it.

Q    So you had your lawyers, Mr. Yeatts and Mr. Falwell, and you had the investigators, Mr. Pendergrass and Mr. Church, and it had only been a week since you'd had your conversation with Ronnie Kimble, and you told those gentlemen that on one occasion he mentioned this? A    No, sir, that's incorrect.

Q    It is incorrect?

A    Yes, sir. I believe, if I'm not mistaken, sir, that that was a reference to one specific occasion.

Q    "After meeting Kimble, Whidden stated, he was befriended by Kimble and recalls on one occasion Kimble


1448

telling Whidden about the death of Kimble's sister-in-law. Whidden stated he was told by Kimble that the police suspected Kimble and his brother of the murder." Didn't you tell those gentlemen --

MR. PANOSH: He's answered that question.

Q    -- that it was one occasion?

A    I was speaking of one specific occasion, sir.

Q    So it doesn't mean what it says?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    It's inaccurate, isn't it?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

Q    It doesn't accurately –­

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q    -- reflect your position on this subject, does it?

A    I couldn't say, sir. The way I read it, I would think it means one specific occasion. I'm not exactly sure, the way it's written, what it means.

Q    Well, then, since I might have read it wrong, beginning with the words "After meeting Kimble," would you read it, and let's see how it sounds.

A    Yes, sir, I will.

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: He's read it. Sustained.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, he hasn't answered the


1449

question.

THE COURT: I think he has, sir, to the best of his ability.

One more time, read it, if it would help you, sir.

A    Would you like me to read it out loud?

Q    Yes, I would. Thanks.

A    "After meeting Kimble, Whidden stated, he was befriended by Kimble and recalls on one occasion Kimble telling Whidden about the death of Kimble's sister-in-law."

Q    Would you read the rest of the sentences in that paragraph.

A    Yes, sir. "Whidden stated he was told --" "Whidden stated he was told by Kimble that the police suspected Kimble and his brother-in-law of the murder. Whidden stated Kimble went on to say that the police wanted to arrest someone for the murder and did not care who they arrested."

Q    Is that accurate? Is that what Ronnie Kimble told you?

A    That was basically what he told me.

Q    Told you that they wanted to arrest somebody and they didn't care who they arrested; is that what he told you?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Now, in the next -- in the third paragraph, if you'll look down, beginning with the words "On January 24th," you stated that Mr. Kimble and his wife appeared unexpectedly at your house in Lynchburg, didn't you?


1450

A    That's what the statement says. That's not the way that I recall it.

Q    So, once again, the statement is inaccurate, based upon your recollection; is that right?

A    It was not unexpected. It was -- If I can elaborate on that. It wasn't -- it wasn't unexpected, in that we knew he was coming, but the specific day he was going to be there was a little shock. I forget exactly what the arrangements were made, but I remember that it was -- it was unexpected in that, that specific date, but we did know that he was coming.

Q    Now, it says a little further down in the same paragraph that certain discussions took place between you and Ronnie Kimble, according to the statement, on July 20-­I mean, I'm sorry, on January 24, 1997, doesn't it?

A    Yes, it does.

Q    Now, just to try to clarify the time frame, the Kimbles arrived at your and your wife Debra's house on late evening hours of the 23rd, didn't they?

A    Yes, sir.

Q And as you said a little while ago, they called you and notified you that they were in the vicinity, and rather than try to explain all the lefts and rights and things, you just went over and met them and led them back to your house; is

that correct?


1451

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Now, you did not in any way feel imposed upon by that, did you?

A    No, sir, I didn't.

Q    And he was a friend of yours from the Marine Corps, and you were glad to see him, weren't you?

A    Yes, sir, I was.

Q    Now, when he -- when you knew -- when you got that call, the ball was in your court, wasn't it? You could have either said, "Ronnie, you know, I've got a kid and another one on the way, and a very small townhouse. You know, maybe it would be better if you'd get some accommodations at a motel and I'll see you tomorrow morning and show you around." You could have done that, couldn't you?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

MR. HATFIELD: I'm not asking --

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HATFIELD: -- him to speculate.

THE COURT: You may answer that.

Q    You could have done that, couldn't you?

A    Yes, sir, I could have.

Q    And it wouldn't have offended Ronnie Kimble in the least, would it?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.


1452

Q    You felt that it was not too big an inconvenience for you to have these people into your home, and that you'd find someplace for them to sleep; isn't that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Now, do you recall exactly what time everybody got back to your house?

A    The evening of the 23rd?

Q    Yes, sir.

A    It was after dark. If I had to guess, I would say it was around 9:00, but I can't be accurate on that.

Q    Do you remember, at that time, did you have one child or two children?

A    At that time, we had two children.

Q    All right. And another one on the way?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Do you have three children now?

A    Yes, sir, I do.

Q    Were the two children that you had then, did they have a little bedroom beside your wife's and your bedroom, or did just one of them have it?

A    They shared the same bedroom.

Q    So there was a children's room and a parents' room?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And I believe you said that you put a mattress on the floor for Ronnie and Kim, and the kids came in and stayed


1453

with you and Debra; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Now, do you remember whether Ronnie Kimble took a shower before they went to bed?

A    No, sir, I do not.

Q    Do you remember his telling you that he had a bunch of glue on his body, due to electrodes that had been attached by Navy medical people over in Portsmouth?

A    That sounds familiar.

Q    You knew why Ronnie Kimble was in Virginia that particular time frame, didn't you?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    What was the reason?

A    He was going for some sort of test at a naval installation.

Q    Do you know where that naval installation was?

A    I couldn't be for sure.

Q    Well, most naval installations are on the coast, aren't they?

A    Yes, sir. It was more than likely at Norfolk, Virginia.

Q    Or in the general vicinity of Norfolk; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Have you been to Norfolk, Virginia?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.


1454

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    Have you been to Portsmouth, Virginia?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    You spent three and a half years in the Marine Corps; is that right?

A    Three years and nine months.

Q    Did you ever go to the naval medical facility in Portsmouth, Virginia for any reason?

A    Not that I recall.

Q    Now, when Ronnie got to your house, do you recall that he told you that he had this glue on his body and it was sticky, and he needed to take a shower?

A    I don't really recall. Like I said, that sounds familiar, but I couldn't be for sure.

Q    You can't remember?

A    No, sir.

Q    You can't even remember whether he took a shower?
MR. PANOSH: He's answered, please.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, he's answered that he can't remember.

THE COURT: He's answered that, Mr. Hatfield. Move on.

MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, it's going to take a


1455

long time to cover this case --

THE COURT: Well, we're going to move along, and you need to move along.

Q    You said you had a bath and a half in this apartment?

A    Yes, I did.

Q    Where was the shower?

A    Upstairs.

Q    There's only one shower in the entire apartment; isn't that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Now, the next day, what time did you all get up in the morning?

A    I would guess around 7:00, between 6:00 and 7:00, because school started at 8:00.

Q    And you went off and you went to some classes, and after a while, Ronnie and Kim drifted off on their own; is that correct?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    They didn't go to all the classes that you went to that morning, did they?

A    No, sir.

Q    And in the afternoon, did you all meet back at your place?

A    I rode back home with them. They met me at school, and they -- we drove back home together.


1456

Q    What time did you get back to your house?

A    I would guess around 12:15, 12:30.

Q    And then, did you stay at your townhouse the rest of the afternoon, until you went out to eat, or were there some afternoon activities?

A    We stayed at the townhouse, while Ronnie Kimble and his wife left sometime after lunch, to go back up to the campus.

Q    Now, when you spoke of the chancellor, you were talking about Dr. Wilmington, weren't you?

A    No, sir.

Q    You were talking about Dr. Falwell?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Did you learn later in the day that Ronnie and Kim had a chance to see Dr. Falwell?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    And what time did Ronnie and Kim come back to your townhouse after they'd seen Dr. Falwell?

A    I don't recall the time, sir.

Q    Do you remember what activities the family and Kimbles engaged in during that period?

A    Yes, sir. We played Nintendo.

Q    Did you watch any videos?

A    Not that I recall.

Q    Well, are you having difficulty recalling the details of this event?


1457

MR. PANOSH: Objection to comments of counsel.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. HATFIELD: That's a question, not a comment.

THE COURT: Move along.

Q    Well, do you remember looking at a video of Dr. Falwell?

A    I don't remember that specifically.

Q    Do you remember a video that you had in your house, of Dr. Falwell appearing on "Larry King Live" and debating Larry Flynt, a guy that has a dirty magazine that he'd made millions of dollars off of? Do you remember that?

A    I remember having that tape. I don't remember if I had it at the time.

Q    Did you show it to Ronnie and Kim?

A    I don't recall.

Q    Can you tell me how Ronnie and Kim would know about that tape, if you didn't show it to them?

MR. PANOSH: Objection, please.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    Did you tell them about that, or did you look at it?

Q    MR. PANOSH: Objection. He's answered.

THE COURT: He says he didn't recall.

Q    Isn't it a fact that you looked at it, and everybody laughed and thoroughly enjoyed that video?

A    I don't recall.


1458

Q    You recall a confession of murder, but you can't recall anything else; is that your testimony?

A    A confession of murder would stick in my mind more than a day-to-day conversation I would not remember a year later.

Q    All right. So you don't remember what your activities were that afternoon with the Kimbles. Do you remember what time you went to dinner?

A    Sometime in the evening.

Q    You don't know what time?

A    I don't recall the exact time, sir.

Q    Now, in going to dinner with the Kimbles, who paid for the dinner meal?

THE COURT: How is that relevant?

MR. HATFIELD: The Kimbles paid for it.

A    I don't recall.

Q    You don't recall?

A    No, sir.

Q    Do you recall what you had to eat?

A    I recall that we ordered the meat, and we had to get the vegetables, because it was a vegetable bar.

Q    Now, what time did you leave the restaurant?

A    Sometime after dark.

Q    Well, this was January, so dark comes early, doesn't it?

A    Sometime after dark.


1459

Q    Do you remember where you bought the chair?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Where was that?

A    Best.

Q    Is that Best Products?

A    Best Department Store, sir.

Q    Best Department Store? How many chairs were purchased?

A    I believe Ronnie Kimble bought one, also.

Q    So the two of you bought chairs, Ronnie --

A    I believe he bought one. I know I bought one.

Q    Looking at your statement of February 3rd, do you see anything in there about buying a chair?

(Time was allowed for the witness.)

A    No, sir, I don't see anything in regards to buying a chair.

Q    Now --

A    I didn't think that was relevant.

Q    -- after the chairs were purchased, they were loaded into your vehicle and brought back to your townhouse, weren't they?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Along with your two kids and everybody else; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And then, did the Kimbles put their chair in their car,


1460

unassembled in the box?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And the other chair was taken into your apartment?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Now, isn't it a fact that Ronnie Kimble got down on the floor and assembled that chair?

A    Yes, sir, it is.

Q    And isn't it a fact that your oldest kid -- what's your oldest kid's name?

A    Mitchell.

Q    Mitchell had a hilarious time playing with Ronnie in that chair, didn't he?

MR. PANOSH: Object to relevance.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, I want to cross-examine the witness about everything that happened, so we can determine if his memory is good.

THE COURT: Objection sustained. Move on.

Q    Do you remember your child and Ronnie playing together?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

You don't have to answer.

Move along.

Q    Do you remember making a statement to Mr. Panosh over here on July 21, 1998, in his office?


1461

A    Yes, sir, I remember making a statement to him.

Q    Do you remember that?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And Mr. Panosh carefully took down everything that you said about these events; do you recall that?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Do you have that statement in front of you?

MR. HATFIELD: Would you furnish the witness with a copy of it.

MR. PANOSH: Your Honor, there is no statement.

MR. HATFIELD: He was interviewed, and I was given a copy of what he said.

MR. PANOSH: Your Honor, all I did was a telephone interview of Mr. Whidden, and I gave Mr. Hatfield a copy of my notes only.

THE COURT: Is it a signed statement, Mr. Hatfield?

MR. HATFIELD: No, sir.

THE COURT: All right, sir. Move along. You may ask him about any conversation he had with Mr. Panosh, if that's the gist of the notes.

(Time was allowed for Mr. Hatfield.)

THE COURT: You may stand and stretch, if you'd like.

(Further time was allowed.)


1462

Q    Mr. Whidden, when you talked to Mr. Panosh on the telephone on July 21st of 1998 -- do you remember having that conversation with Mr. Panosh?

A    Yes, sir, I do.

Q    Were you trying to relate the facts of your encounter with Ronnie Kimble as best you could when you talked to Mr. Panosh?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Now, did you tell Mr. Panosh that it was a month or two after you met Ronnie that you first became aware that there had been a murder at all?

A    That sounds accurate.

Q All right. So, assuming that you knew him five months, as we said earlier, it would have only been through a period of about three months that he would have discussed this with you; is that right?

MR. PANOSH: We object.

Q    Is that --

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q    -- correct, sir?

A    It could have been as many as four months.

Q    All right. And did he tell you that his brother had not done this crime?

A    Yes, sir, he did.

Q    And did you say to -- and did he tell you that at one


1463

time, someone had said that his car had been seen at the

time of the murder? He told you that, didn't he?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And this was a matter of concern to him, that the investigators were telling him his car had been seen at the time of the murder; is that right?

A    Yes.

Q    But didn't he tell you, according to what you told Mr. Panosh, that that was impossible, because he had a receipt from a gas station from across town? Is that what you said to Mr. Panosh? A    Yes, sir.

Q    So, you remember something about a gas receipt; is that correct?

A    Yes, I do.

Q    And you thought that Mr. Kimble was saying to you that  the gas receipt proved that he hadn't been in the vicinity; isn't that what your understanding was at that time?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And then you said, "Every time he would come out, he would tell me more details"; isn't that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    So what you told Mr. Panosh on July 21, 1998, where you said, "Every time he would come out, he would tell me more details," is quite different from what you told Mr.


1464

Pendergrass and Mr. Church when you said on one occasion; isn't that right?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q    It's substantially different, isn't it?

A    No, sir.

Q    That's not different?

A    No, sir.

Q    All right. Now, you recall -- of course, your statement to Mr. Panosh over the telephone was not under oath, was it?

A    No, sir.

Q    You were just trying to tell it as best you could; isn't that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Now, do you remember testifying under oath in these proceedings, when the jury was not here, about the matters that you are testifying to today?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And do you remember that you were asked the question, not by me, but by someone else, "On how many occasions approximately did you and he discuss this?" Do you remember that question?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And what was your answer?


1465

A    I believe I answered five to six.

Q    If I said that you -- that your answer was "Estimated three to four," would that refresh your recollection?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Thank you. Now, in connection to talking to Mr. Panosh on the telephone about this case, and making reference to a woman who had seen him near where Patricia's house was, and making reference to a gas receipt, you said, "I remember thinking at the time that did not really impress me, because anyone could get a receipt." Did you say that?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    So at that point in time, you had concluded that he was probably guilty of that business that they were investigating him for, because you didn't even believe what he had to say about it, did you?

A    No, sir, that's incorrect.

Q    Then why did you say, "That did not really impress me, because anyone could get a receipt"?

A    At that time, I still thought that he was innocent, yet, I said that, because that seemed to be the evidence that he was relying on to keep him from being charged, and I remembered thinking that he's got to have more than that, because that's not very impressive.

Q    You were judging this man, while he thought you were his friend, weren't you?


1466

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

A    No, sir, I wasn't.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    You were forming opinions on a weekly basis, as he came out and visited you and shot pool, you were forming opinions about whether or not you thought he was somehow actually guilty of this stuff; isn't that right?

A    Yes, sir, I was forming opinions.

Q    And you told Mr. Panosh that "He," meaning Ronnie Kimble, "had said he was trying to figure it out in his own head, and he was always going over it with me"; isn't that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Those were not admissions of guilt by him, were they?

A    No, sir.

Q    Then there was some reference to a tool box, wasn't there?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    What did he tell you about the tool box?

A    I remember him telling me there was some large tool box that was moved, so that they thought there may have been more than one person involved.

Q    And you thought to yourself, I'll bet Ronnie Kimble was involved in this, and so was some other person; isn't that right?


1467

A    No, sir.

Q    Then you said, "He didn't --"

MR. PANOSH: Your Honor, there are no quotes in here at all. We object. These are simply my notes.

Q    Did you say at that time, or words to this effect, "He didn't really let on that they were investigating him, also"? Did you say that?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Now, in your February 3rd statement, will you look on Page 2 of your February 3rd statement.

(Time was allowed for the witness.)

Q    On your February 3rd statement, you said that you were told by Kimble -- I'm talking about the top paragraph on Page 2 -- that the police suspected Kimble and his brother of the murder. That's what you said to Yeatts and Falwell and Mr. Pendergrass and Mr. Church, isn't it?

A    That doesn't sound accurate.

Q    So there's another inaccuracy in the earliest statement that you made; is that right?

(Time was allowed for the witness.)

A    I may have been referring to a later date, than the previous conversations. The previous conversations took place, he never let on that they were investigating him. And then at a later date, it was -- he did tell me towards -- more towards the time before I got out that they were


1468

investigating him, also, because of the people that were coming down to interview him on the base. So that was two different time frames.

Q    But you didn't tell Mr. Falwell and Mr. Yeatts that, did you?

MR. PANOSH: Object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q    I mean, how could they have known? It's just inaccurate, isn't it?

A    No, sir, it's not. It's referring to two different time frames. And these are parts of several different discussions.

Q    The fact is, Mr. Whidden, when you talked to Mr. Yeatts and Mr. Falwell and Mr. Pendergrass and Mr. Church, you didn't want them to know that you had had a whole series of conversations with Ronnie Kimble, and you knew all about the police investigation in Greensboro, and you knew what Ronnie Kimble's concerns were, didn't you?

A    Could you rephrase the question, please.

Q    Yes, I can. When you were talking to Messrs. Yeatts, Falwell, Pendergrass and Church, you did not want them to know that you in fact knew all about this investigation in Greensboro and the suspicions that the Greensboro police authorities had about Ronnie Kimble; isn't that true?

A    No, sir. That's an inaccurate statement.


1469

Q    You didn't want them to know that, because you wanted to act like this was some sort of spontaneous confession; isn't that right?

A    No, sir, that's not true.

Q    Well, then, why does it appear in the written report that's been entered into the record of this case? Why are there so many inaccuracies in that report?

MR. PANOSH: Object, please.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    It's not a very good account of what you told them, is it?

A    Yes, sir, it's a fairly good account.

Q    And yet, your memory should have been better then than at any other time; isn't that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Now, you have said on a number of occasions that Ronnie Kimble told you that he had a haunted past, haven't you?

A    Yes, sir, he did tell me that.

Q    And yet, if you look at the statement that you have in your hand, Exhibit 130, there's nothing in there about a haunted past, is there?

(Time was allowed for the witness.)

A    No, sir.

Q    So this business about a haunted past came up later, didn't it, add a little color to the story?


1470

MR. PANOSH: We object to comments. Ask that –­

THE COURT: Sustained.

Disregard that, members of the jury.

Q    Now, when did you decide that Ronnie Kimble had told you he had a haunted past?

A    The moment he told me.

Q    What? Sir?

THE COURT: Repeat your answer, Mr. Whidden. I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you.

THE COURT: He said he didn't hear your answer.

A    Could you please repeat the question, sir.

Q    Yeah. When did you first tell anybody -- when do you contend that Ronnie Kimble said he had a haunted past?

A    The moment he told me.

Q    But in fact, when you told Mr. Panosh over the telephone what your recollection of these events were, you  said that you and Ronnie Kimble and your wives and children -- your children, were riding in your van, and that Ronnie Kimble said something about a haunted past, didn't you?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

A    Yes, sir, he did.

MR. PANOSH: That's not --

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q    Is that when you referenced the haunted past?

A    He talked about his haunted past during dinner, and he


1471

further elaborated on some of that on the van ride on the way home.

Q    Now, are you saying to this jury that you heard Ronnie Kimble say in the presence of his wife, while riding in -­while eating dinner with you and your wife and your children, that he had a haunted past?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And are you saying that you concluded from that that he must have fooled around with some girl and --

A    Yes, sir.

Q    But why would he tell you that in front of his own wife?

A    I don't know.

Q    Did you think it was important?

A    That he told me that?

Q    Yes, sir.

A    Not particularly.

Q    Now, looking at State's Exhibit 130, that you have before you, and look -- if you please, look at the third page. And there's one large paragraph there. If you would go down that paragraph about two-thirds of the way, you can see the language "Kimble further told Whidden that Kimble believed 'it was her time to go'." Do you see that? (Time was allowed for the witness.)

A    Yes, I do see it.


1472

Q    Now, when did he tell you that it was Patricia's time to go?

A    I believe he told me that during the conversation upstairs in my home, when he confessed the murder to me, in the course of that same conversation.

Q    Now, do you remember when you were talking to Mr. Panosh on July 21, 1998 over the telephone?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    You told Mr. Panosh that after Ronnie Kimble had been at your house and talked to you about the investigation and his feelings about the investigation, that you were very concerned about what you'd found out from him; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And so, you took it upon yourself to pack up your car, with your wife and your two children, and drive down to Camp Lejeune; is that right?

A    Yes, sir, we did.

Q    Do you know what day you think you did that on?

A    I don't remember the exact date. I have a -- I have a receipt with a date on it, because I had to get a pass to get on the base. I don't recall the exact date. I assume it would have been somewhere around the 28th, somewhere in that time frame.

Q    Now, Ronnie Kimble was in your house the night of the


1473

24th of January, and you say that on the 28th of January, you went down to Camp Lejeune; is that right?

A    Again, I don't remember the exact date, but it's --

Q    And then you had another conversation with Ronnie Kimble down there; is that right?

A    Yes, I did.

Q    And isn't it a fact that you told Mr. Panosh that during your conversation with him in Camp Lejeune, you tried to convince him to turn himself in?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    And you talked to him about whether God could forgive him; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And then you told Mr. Panosh that Ronnie said to you, "Nobody dies before it's their time to go"?

A    That must --

Q    Isn't that what you said to Mr. Panosh in your telephone conversation of July 21st?

A    I don't recall exactly what I said.

Q    If I showed you --

MR. PANOSH: May he finish, please?

THE COURT: You may finish. You may finish your answer, sir.

A    I don't recall exactly what I said. In the course of the conversations that I had with Mr. Panosh, I would be


1474

talking -- we'd talk through one portion, and then I would remember back to another portion at another date. And sometimes they would interchange and get somewhat confused in the source of -- in the -- as the conversation proceeded. Q    So you're not holding to this -- the fact that you told Mr. Panosh that you told -- that Ronnie said something to you about it was her time to go when you were down in Camp Lejeune, you're not holding to that now?

A    He did say that, but I -- but I do not recall if he said it also when I was in Camp Lejeune. I know he said it at the time of his confession, but I don't recall if he repeated himself at Camp Lejeune.

MR. PANOSH: May we approach?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. PANOSH: We don't need the court reporter. It's for scheduling.

(All three counsel conferred with the Court at the bench.)

THE COURT: Members of the jury, at this point, we are going to interrupt this witness's testimony. We'll come back to this witness's testimony. There is a witness that will be testifying who has commitments for the rest of the week, will not be available. And so, by consent of the defendant and the State, this witness is being taken out of sequence, for his convenience, to get his testimony in. So please remember that cross-examination of this witness will


1475

continue after the intervening witness.

You may step down, Mr. Whidden, at this time, sir.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

(The witness left the witness stand.)


1512

THURSDAY, AUGUST 20, 1998

(Court convened at 9:34 a.m. The defendant was present. The jury was not present.)

THE COURT: Any matters we need to take care of before the jury's brought in?

MR. HATFIELD: No, Your Honor.

MR. PANOSH: Not for the State, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Let me see the attorneys up here a moment.

(All three counsel conferred with the Court at the bench.) THE COURT: Bring them in.

(The jury entered the courtroom at 9:35 a.m.)

THE COURT: Well, it's nice to have the jury panel back this morning. I hope each of you had a restful evening and feeling okay. Anyone on the panel experiencing any problems today that I should know about, if you'll raise your hand, I'll be glad to talk with you about that.

Okay. If the witness will please return to the witness stand, please, Mr. Panosh.

MR. PANOSH: Mr. Whidden.

(The witness Louie Mitchell Whidden, Jr. returned to the witness stand.)

THE COURT: Mr. Whidden, the Court reminds you you're still under oath, sir.

Members of the jury, this is a witness that we


1513

interrupted his cross-examination.

Continue --

MR. HATFIELD: Thank you, Judge.

THE COURT: -- Mr. Panosh -- Mr. Hatfield. Excuse me.

LOUIE MITCHELL WHIDDEN, JR., being previously duly sworn, testified as follows during CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION by MR. HATFIELD:

Q    Mr. Whidden, you saw your former lawyer, Mr. Yeatts, testify yesterday afternoon, didn't you?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    When you consulted with him, he was a lawyer for Liberty University; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And the term "Falwell and Yeatts" applies to his -- the firm he now has; is that right?

A    I'm not sure about his firm now.

Q    Did you understand when you went to see him that he was a university lawyer, and that you -- as a student, you had the privilege of consulting with him, as part of being a student?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    You didn't have to pay him a fee or anything like that?

A    No, sir, I didn't.

Q    And is that -- does that apply equally to Jerry


1514

Falwell, Jr., the other lawyer?

A    Yes.

Q    They were both just like university health services or just like using the university pool, that was just a benefit of being up there and being enrolled; is that right?

A    No, sir, I don't think so.

Q    It was more than that?

A    Yes, sir. I think it was a special circumstance, that they --

Q    So it was a --

A    -- were allowed --

Q    -- favor --

A    -- to talk to me.

Q    -- done specifically for you?

A    No, sir, it wasn't. It was a -- it was -- I would say it was a special circumstance that Dr. Falwell requested, in light of the situation.

Q    So it was a favor for you, wasn't it?

MR. PANOSH: We object, please.

MR. HATFIELD: He objects to every question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q    "Yes" or "No"?

A    No, sir, I don't believe it was a personal favor.

Q    Now, Dr. Falwell said yesterday that the reason he talked to you was because your sister is very close to his


1515

daughter; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    So it was a favor, wasn't it?

A    I can't really begin to guess why they helped me out. All I can say is that they helped me and that I appreciated it.

Q    Now, there's no record that you know of, of whatever it is that you told Mr. Falwell and Mr. Yeatts on that first meeting, is there? There's no written record?

A    Excuse me, sir. Which Mr. Falwell?

Q      The young Mr. Falwell, the one that's a lawyer. A    Yes, sir. I'm not sure if they took a record of that or not.

Q      The only written record of what you have had to say about Ronnie Kimble is the exhibit that you had in front of you yesterday afternoon, that was a statement recorded by Mr. Pendergrass on February 3rd; is that correct?

Q      A    I really can't answer that, sir, because as many times as I spoke with the investigators, I'm not sure what records they took from what I said and what notes they took. Q    I didn't ask you what they knew. My question is, is there any records that you personally know of, that's in writing, other than this?

(Mr. Hatfield placed an exhibit on the witness stand and indicated.)


1516

A    Not to my personal knowledge.

Q    Okay. And is there any other writing that has been shown to you, to help you refresh your memory, so that you can testify accurately in this trial?

A    Perhaps a note -- perhaps some notes were reviewed from telephone conversations and things of that nature. I have reviewed several different papers, but I don't know about a -- I don't know what you would classify them as, other than personal notes that they had taken.

Q    So you have read the notes that Mr. Panosh took on July 21, 1998, when you talked to him on the telephone, haven't you?

A    Yes, sir, I believe I have.

Q    But you haven't been given a copy of that?

A    I believe I was given a copy of this (Indicated) and I didn't keep it. I read over it about once or so, and it makes me a little queasy to read it, to be honest with you, sir, so I just never have read it again, never paid a --

Q    So was --

A    -- lot of attention to it.

Q    -- it sent to you down in Arcadia, Florida?

A    No, sir.

Q    When did you read it?

A    That would have been last week, when I testified before the judge, in the absence of the jury.


1517

Q    So you remember testifying in front of the judge in this courtroom on August 3, 1998?

A    Yes, sir, I do.

Q    Have you been shown a copy of your testimony on that date?

A    No, sir.

Q    So other than your memory today, August 20th, you have no other means of telling the jury anything about what you said on August 3rd; is that correct?

A    No, sir, just my memory.

Q    Just your memory. You haven't looked at any writings pertaining to that?

A    No, sir.

Q    Are you fully satisfied, looking back on August 3rd, that what you said on that occasion was accurate and true and complete?

MR. PANOSH: Objection. Compound statement.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    Are you fully satisfied, looking back on your testimony on August 3rd, that it was accurate?

A    On August 3rd --

MR. PANOSH: Objection. He said he hasn't gone over it.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, he can remember it. It's only three weeks ago.


1518

THE COURT: Overruled.

A    On August 3rd, when I gave my testimony before the judge, I recall the things to the best of my memory, just as I have now.

Q    But when you think back on it now, was what you said then accurate?

THE COURT: He's answered.

Q    Was it true?

THE COURT: Objection sustained. He's answered it.

Q    Was it complete?

A    It -- I can't recall everything that I said. All that I can say, sir, is that I answered it to the best of my memory at that time.

Q    Now, the meeting that took place on February 3, 1997 consisted of five adults, plus yourself, didn't it?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    There was you, Mr. Falwell, Jr., Mr. Patric Yeatts, Mr. Harold Pendergrass, Mr. James Church, and Sergeant Deberry, am I right?

A    Yes, sir, that sounds accurate. And my wife also later on in the conversation.

Q    So she joined in that at some point; is that right?

A    Yes, sir, toward the end of that conversation, she did.

Q    Was there a stenographer there?


1519

A    I'm not quite sure who that is, sir.

Q    Well, was there a person such as the lady sitting before you, who was taking down some notes or shorthand or otherwise recording it in some fashion?

A    The investigators and detectives were taking their own personal notes.

Q    So everybody had their pad out, writing their notes down; is that right?

A    To the best of my memory.

Q    Did Mr. Falwell write notes?

A    I don't remember exactly what notes he wrote or if he was writing notes. I would assume he did, but I can't be for sure that he did.

Q    Well, this is something that didn't happen too long ago, just February 3, 1997.

MR. PANOSH: Object. We'd like questions, please.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    Are you unable to remember who took notes?

A    I'm unable to remember exactly who did the actual writing of the notes, because that's not something that would stick out in your mind.

Q    All right. Do you know whether any kind of an audio tape was made of that meeting?

A    Not to the best of my knowledge.

Q    Okay. Now, at that time, you had two children, didn't


1520

you?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    And one of your kids was a toddler; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And that's a kid who played on the chair after you and Ronnie assembled it; is that correct?

A    I don't remember anything about playing on a chair,

sir.

Q    Now, you had another child. How old was that other child?

A    At that time?

Q    Yes, sir.

A    At that time, the other child was an infant.

Q    Now, will you look at the exhibit that you have in front of you, on the first page.

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Can you look down to the next to the last paragraph, over on the right, it says, "Whidden and his wife are the parents of one small female child," doesn't it?

A    Well, sir, that's --

Q    Excuse me. Does it say that?

A    Yes, sir, it does say that.

Q    That's inaccurate, isn't it?

A    The record that I have is an accurate summary of the basic tenets of what I told them, but it wasn't my actual


1521

verbatim word for word. If I may be allowed to give an example. For example, they just didn't quote the exact words that I said during the course of this interview. They wrote down -- we were interviewed for a long period of time, and I said a lot more than is in here. It wasn't the exact quotations of everything I said, sir.

Q    There's five adults sitting in there, every one of them highly educated, two lawyers, two detectives, a sergeant of the sheriff's department, who's head of homicide, and they're all taking notes --

MR. PANOSH: Object. No question.

Q    -- and they can't even figure out how many children you got?

MR. PANOSH: Object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    They got it wrong?

MR. PANOSH: Object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    Did they get it wrong because you got it wrong or because they got it wrong?

A    Sir, I can't say why it's wrong, except to say that I knew how many children I have. Q    But now, on the next page, when they wrote that on one occasion, Ronnie Kimble told you the background facts, that was wrong, too, wasn't it?


1522

MR. PANOSH: Object. Asked and answered.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A    Actually, sir, that appears to be correct, to my reading of the statement. It appears that they're referring to one specific occasion, and not one occasion, period.

Q    Five men, all of them highly educated, all taking notes, you talking for hours, and they conclude and put in their report that you saw Ronnie on one occasion?

MR. PANOSH: Object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q    And you don't tell them that they've made a mistake, when you've reviewed this thing, you don't notice that until I point it out to you, do you?

A    Well, again, sir, it doesn't appear to be a mistake to me. Just the way I read it, it appears that they're referring to one specific occasion.

Q    Well, it says, "After meeting Kimble," you said -­First of all, let's look back. It says, "Whidden stated Kimble's duties included the delivery of requested supplies to each chaplain's office," doesn't it?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Then it says, "After meeting Kimble," would that refer to your making Kimble's acquaintance? "After meeting Kimble" refers to you moving from never having known him, to meeting him and knowing who he is; isn't that right?


1523

A Sir, I can't -- I can't say exactly -- due to the grammar structure and all, I can't -- I just can't say exactly what they meant by what they wrote down, based --

Q    Then --

A    -- on what I said.

Q    Then you said, "he was befriended by Kimble," and that truly did happen, didn't it?

A    Well, these are true statements, but they're not exactly what I said. For example, I wouldn't have said I was befriended by Kimble. I probably said me and Kimble became -- me and Ronnie Kimble became friends or something of that nature. It's just a summary.

Q    And you probably wouldn't have said that on one occasion, he told you the background facts of Patricia's death, you would have said on 15 or 20 occasions, he told you the background facts of Patricia's case, wouldn't he?

MR. PANOSH: Object to the question.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. PANOSH: It's not in evidence, Your Honor, nowhere.

MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, he testified yesterday it could have been 15 --

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HATFIELD: -- or 20 times.

A    Could you please restate the question, sir.


1524

Q    Yes. As you said, you wouldn't have said that on one occasion, he told you the background facts of Patricia's murder, you would have said on 15 or 20 occasions, he told you the background facts of Patricia's murder, right?

A    I may have said on one specific occasion.

Q    Okay. Now, looking down at the large paragraph that is Paragraph Number 3 on Page 2 of your report. Do you see the sentence "Kimble did not know where the gun was"?

A    Yes, sir, I do.

Q    Is that a true statement?

A    Yes, sir. That was in reference to the second conversation that we had. at Camp Lejeune.

Q    So you're saying that the five highly-educated adults that were taking notes in this meeting wrote down that you said, "Kimble did not know where the gun was," and they were right; is that correct?

MR. PANOSH: We'd object, please.

Q    Is that accurate?

MR. PANOSH: We'd object. There's only one person taking notes.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, let that person testify.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Proceed.

MR. HATFIELD: He says they were all taking notes.

THE COURT: Proceed.


1525

Q    It's accurate, isn't it?

A    That is what he told me.

Q    That's what you think he told you, isn't it?

A    No, sir. That's what he told me.

Q    He told you that he didn't know where the gun was?

A    Yes, sir. He told me that on the second meeting.

Q    Don't you know he told you that he thought she had been killed by his brother's gun, and that the gun was found beside her body? Isn't that what he told you?

A    I don't recall him saying that.

Q    When you and Ronnie Kimble went upstairs in your house, he told you that he was troubled by a dream, didn't he?

A    Could you please restate the question, sir.

Q    When you and Ronnie Kimble went upstairs in your house, he told you that he was troubled by a dream, didn't he?

A    No, sir, I don't recall that.

Q    And he told you that the dream had recurred and that there was something about $20,000 in it; isn't that right?

A    No, sir, I don't recall that.

Q    And don't you know that Ronnie Kimble told you that his brother at some point had made a public offer to pay a reward of $20,000 if anybody could find out who had killed Patricia?

A    He may have stated that to me, but I do not recall it.

Q    Now, at no time in this world did Ronnie Kimble ever


1526

say anything to you about insurance money, did he?

A    No, sir, he did not.

Q    So when you made reference to insurance money yesterday in your testimony, that was simply in error, wasn't it?

A    Could you please elaborate on the specific time that I made reference to that.

Q    In your direct examination, when you said something about insurance money, that was not consistent with what you actually know about this case, was it?

A    I don't recall ever saying anything about insurance money, sir.

Q    But in any event, you also don't recall Ronnie Kimble

MR. PANOSH: We object to "in any event." Q    You don't recall --

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    You don't recall Ronnie Kimble saying anything to you about insurance, do you?

A    No, sir, he did not.

Q    And you also know to an absolute certainty that Ronnie Kimble never received any money whatsoever in consequence of Patricia's death; don't you know that?

A    I do not know that. All I know is what he told me at the time that we talked, was that he had not received any money yet.


1527

Q    Right. Well, then, why don't you know it? If he told it to you, why don't you know it?

MR. PANOSH: Object to argument, please.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    You did know it, because he told it to you; isn't that right?

A    No, sir, I don't recall him saying anything about insurance money.

Q    You also don't recall him saying anything about receiving any money whatsoever, do you?

A    I don't recall him saying anything to me about receiving any money, except to say that he said he would receive some money from his brother.

Q    The fact is that Ronnie Kimble and his wife, Kim, and you and your wife, Debra, were both young Marines who had joined the Marine Corps right out of high school, and neither one of you had any extra money, did you?

A    I can't be aware of their financial status. I know that we did not have any extra money.

Q    You and your wife had no extra money whatsoever, did you?

A    No, sir, we didn't.

Q    And as far as you know, there was no extra money in the Kimble family, either?

MR. PANOSH: It's been answered, please, Your


1528

Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained. He's answered.

Q    They had a vehicle and you had a vehicle, right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    In fact, part of the reason that you offered them accommodations in your house is, because you knew that it was costly to go and stay in motels when you're traveling out on the road, right?

A    It was more of just a courtesy, sir.

Q    Now, do you remember telling Ronnie Kimble about a dream that you had had?

A    No, sir, I do not.

Q    Don't you recall telling Ronnie Kimble about a dream where a man had been abusive to a child?

A    Yes, sir, I did tell him -- I don't know if -- I must have told him about it, because I do remember having a dream about that.

Q    All right. Tell the jury about the dream where the man was abusive to the child.

MR. PANOSH: Object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A    I had a dream -- I had a dream one evening about a man that was abusive to a child. And I must have told Ronnie Kimble about that dream. It woke me up in the middle of the night. I was in tears over it. And I then went down and I


1529

prayed for that child the rest of the morning. And it was -- it was a very heart-wrenching dream. It was just very realistic and very vivid. And I prayed for that child. That's about all I can say about that, sir.

Q    And then a day or so later, you saw something in the newspaper, didn't you?

A    I don't recall seeing anything in the newspaper, sir.

Q    Don't you remember that you saw that that man had passed away, you read it in the paper?

A    No, sir, I don't recall that at all.

Q    Do you recall telling Ronnie Kimble that?

A    No, sir, I do not.

Q    Now, looking at your statement of February 3rd, at Page 3, Paragraph 2, you told the five gentlemen, while you were sitting in the lawyer's office that following your conversation with Kimble, that you were concerned; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    It says that. Is that the word you used?

A    I don't know the exact word I used. I know I expressed to the detectives that I was concerned for my family's safety and also for Ronnie Kimble's, because he had expressed to me that he was suicidal.

Q    So, whoever wrote that, their description of your state of mind was concerned, that would be reasonably accurate?


1530

A    Yes, sir. I was concerned.

Q    All right. You heard Jerry Falwell testify yesterday in these proceedings that he saw you right after -- the next day, after Ronnie Kimble had left, didn't he?

A    Yes, sir, he did see me.

Q    And on that occasion, that would have been Saturday, the 25th of January, 1997, wouldn't it?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And would it be consistent with your recollection that there was a basketball game that day?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Was that Liberty University's team playing some other team?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Who was the other team?

A    I don't know. I didn't pay any attention to the game.

Q    All right. Liberty University is much more than just the Bible Institute, isn't it?

A    Yes, sir, it is.

Q    In fact, the Bible Institute's just one small branch of a very comprehensive university; am I right about that?

A    Yes, sir, you are.

Q    And the student population of the university as a whole is probably eight or nine thousand students; is that right?

Q    A    I'm not sure what the population is.


1531

Q    You didn't -- no one ever told you how big the school you were going to was?

A    I don't remember -- I don't recall how big it was.

Q    How many people attended the Bible Institute?

A    It was about 200 of us.

Q    200?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Is the Bible Institute in any way separated from the university?

A    It's part of the university, yet it's a separate entity from the university, also.

Q    As a Bible Institute student, do you have the full privileges that every other student in the university has to use all the facilities in the university?

A    Basically, yes, sir.

Q    Sir?

A    Basically, yes, sir.

Q     All right. Now, what time was that base-- I'm sorry. What time was that basketball game?

A    I don't recall what time the game was, sir. It was sometime after dark. We never got involved much in sports, so--

Q    It was a nighttime game?

A    Yes, it was.

Q    It was not an afternoon game?


1532

A I'm not sure if it was -- it may have started in the afternoon and led into the night, but I do recall leaving the basketball game after dark.

Q    So after you had finished talking to Dr. Falwell at the game and going outside, it was dark?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    What was the weather like?

A    It was -- it was clear.

Q    Was it cold?

A    I believe it was a little chilly.

Q    What time did you arise on that morning?

A    I don't recall what time we arose the next morning.

Q    Do you have a clock in your bedroom?

A    We didn't -- Excuse me, sir. Which morning are you referring to?

Q    Talking about Saturday morning.

A    Saturday morning?

Q    Yes, sir. Talking about Saturday morning, January 25, 1997. Would you like me to show you this calendar? It doesn't have any notes on it. Would that help you?

A    That's okay. I have a calender, if I need to refer to it. It has the right --

Q     All right. Does that have -- is that January of 1997?

Q     A    Yes, sir, it is. Yes, sir.

Q     All right. So are we talking -- are we on the same


1533

page? Is it January 25, 1997 --

A    Yes, sir.

Q    -- that we're talking about?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And you don't know what time you arose in the morning?

A    I didn't arise that morning. I was -- I was awake all night.

Q    Didn't sleep all night?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Not a drop?

A    No, sir.

Q    So what time was it when you finally came out of your room, met with the Kimbles?

A    I don't remember what time I came out of my room. I came out -- I came out of my room around daylight, and I then waited downstairs for the --

Q    Did you --

A    Kimbles to wake up.

Q    Did you drink any coffee?

A    I don't recall, but I don't believe I did.

Q    Just sat downstairs?

A    Yes, sir. I believe I sat downstairs. I may have -- I may have read my Bible some. I don't recall.

Q    Did you read the book of Ecclesiastes?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.


1534

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    Did you read the book of Leviticus?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    As a matter of fact, you have stated that it was because of things written in the book of Leviticus that you have decided to tell people what you think Ronnie Kimble said to you that day; isn't that right?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

A    No, sir --

THE COURT: Overruled.

A    -- it's not.

Q    Isn't it because of passages in Leviticus --

A    No, sir.

Q    -- that you feel mandate what you're doing?

A    Well, sir, if I may be allowed to explain myself.

Q    First, could you answer, before you explain?

A    I don't really know how to answer that question, without a statement, sir.

Q    All right.

A    I was -- I was troubled about turning in Ronnie Kimble, but I felt I had to, and I did. And at a later date, after I had turned him in, and after I had talked to the police, when I had already left the state, I came across a passage -- a passage of scripture in Leviticus 5, Verses 1 through


1535

5, that state that if someone tells you something, or if you are a witness to something, that according to the scripture, I would be obligated, according to the scripture and my belief in the scripture, I would be obligated to tell it. And that made me -- that made me feel much better about what I had done, in telling what Ronnie Kimble had told me.

Q    When did you find the passage in Leviticus? Do you remember the date?

A    No, sir, I don't remember the date. I just recall -­well, I recall it was probably within a month of when I came down to Florida, but I can't be for sure about that. I can just say that I know it was sometime after I'd already moved down to Florida.

Q    Okay. So you did -- you weren't familiar with Leviticus 5 while you were in Lynchburg, Virginia?

MR. PANOSH: Object, please.

Q    But you did --

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q    -- become familiar with it later, when you went down to Arcadia, Florida; is that right?

A    Well, the Bible being a very large book, you don't always remember everything that you have read, and sometimes some of it will come back to you when you're reading through it.

Q    Okay. Now, what did you -- after -- what time did


1536

Ronnie and his wife awake on the morning of the 25th?

A    I don't recall. I know it was -- I would say it was sometime between 7:00 and 8:00 o'clock.

Q    Did you go up and knock on their door?

A    I don't recall.

Q    Anyway, your wife didn't get up, did she?

A    No, she didn't get up till later.

Q    Till after they'd left, right?

A    No, she didn't get up till after they left.

Q    And even though you say you laid in bed and slept not one wink that whole night, you didn't discuss any of your suspicions with your wife that night, did you?

A    No, sir.

Q    So on the morning of the 25th, you alone knew what Ronnie Kimble had indicated to you the night before; isn't that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And once Ronnie and his wife got up, how quickly did they manage to get their things together and get out of your house?

A    It didn't take them long.

Q    Well, what time did they leave?

A    I would say they left some -- at some point between 7:00 a.m. and 8:30 a.m.

Q    Do you remember what the weather was like then?


1537

A    No, sir, I do not.

Q    Do you remember what Ronnie Kimble said to you about what his destination was that day?

A    No, sir, I do not.

Q    Did he tell you he was going back to Julian, North Carolina?

A    I don't recall if he was going back there or back to the base.

Q    But he either was going to his and Kim's residence in Julian, or to the base; isn't that right?

A    I don't know where he was going. At that time, I assumed that's where he was going.

Q    But if you were afraid of him, weren't you fairly concerned about where he was going?

A    Well, where he was going, at that time, in my mind, really did not have much relevance, because I didn't know whether to believe anything he had said to me about --

Q    Well, why --

A    -- where he was going.

Q    Then why did you believe what he'd said to you when he was up in your room the night before, if you didn't know whether to believe him or not?

MR. PANOSH: Object. That's not what he said.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    You just got through saying that that morning, as he


1538

was leaving, you didn't know whether to believe what he said, didn't you?

A    No, sir, I didn't.

Q    You didn't just say that?

A    What I said was that I didn't know whether or not to believe where he said he was going, he was actually going. I had --

Q    Well, you knew he was a Marine in good standing and had to go back to his base, didn't you?

A    I didn't know when he had to go back to the base.

Q    Well, didn't you discuss anything with this guy during the days that he was a house guest of yours?

A    Yes, sir, we did.

Q    What did you discuss?

A    At what point, sir?

Q    Well, the night that he arrived at your house, what did you and he talk about? You hadn't seen each other in months. You had started Liberty University in July. You'd been formerly separated from the Marine Corps in the middle of August. You hadn't seen him since July, and this is now January. That's six months. You hadn't seen him in six months. What did you --

MR. PANOSH: Your Honor --

Q    -- talk about?

MR. PANOSH: -- we object. There's too many


1539

components to this one question.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. HATFIELD: Yes, sir. I'll make it real simple.

Q    You hadn't seen him in six months, so what did you and he talk about?

A    Well, sir, we probably discussed things that were going on at the chaplain's office. I'm sure I would have asked him about that. But to be honest with you, I do not remember the day-to-day conversations and day-to-day actions that we had. All that I remembered were the unusual things that would stick out in my mind, because of the long period of time that it's been since this has happened.

Q    You really can't remember anything he said that entire time he was at your house, except what you say he said to you about Patricia's death; isn't that right?

A    I can remember a few things. The things that would stick out in my mind as being unusual.

Q    But you don't remember him telling you about the sleep disorder evaluation at Portsmouth, do you?

A    No, sir, not particularly.

Q    And you don't remember his telling you what the duration of his leave from the Marine Corps was, do you?

A    No, sir, I do not.

Q    Now, he got to your house on a Friday evening, didn't


1540

he? Look at your map -- or your calendar.

A    Yes, sir.

Q              Did you know where he'd been earlier that day?

A    Excuse me.

Q    Thursday evening. I'm --

A    Thursday evening.

Q    I didn't mean to mislead you.

A    Yes, sir.

Q    He got to your house on Thursday evening, didn't he?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And that was the 23rd of January?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Well, when he got there, did you know where he'd been that morning?

A    I'm sure I did at the time, but as I said, I didn't remember the details of day-to-day conversation. All that remembered was the unusual circumstances and unusual things that --

Q    Do you remember --

A    -- he would say to me.

Q    -- any of the things you talked about with him when you and he went to see some classes at Liberty Bible Institute the following day?

A    Yes, sir. We discussed basically the work of the ministry and things of that very general nature, and the


1541

classes that he would be sitting in on.

Q    So what did he tell you about what had been going on at the chaplain's office down at Lejeune the previous six months?

A    I don't remember, sir. All I remember is, that I'm sure I would have asked him how things were going, how -­just in a general sense, how people were doing that I used to work with and --

Q    Who were --

A    -- things of that nature.

Q    -- some of the people that you would have been curious about?

A    The chaplain that I worked for.

Q    Who was that?

A    Chaplain Jim Asher.

Q    Did you ask Ronnie about him?

A    More than likely.

Q    You don't remember that?

A    No, sir, I do not.

Q    Did Ronnie update you on any information about Chaplain Asher?

THE COURT: Well, objection sustained. Move along, Mr. Hatfield.

Q    All right. Who else did he mention?

A    I don't remember, sir.


1542

Q    Do you -- can you even remember anybody that you knew at the chaplain's office that Ronnie also knew?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Who?

A    I remember faces better than I remember names. I remember Chaplain Asher. I remember Chaplain Prince.

Q    Do you remember Chaplain Soutiere?

A    If I'm not mistaken, Chaplain Soutiere was a Catholic chaplain there.

Q    Did you know him?

A    I believe I spoke with him on one occasion, to ask him information about the Catholic Church. I was very curious as to their beliefs.

Q    Because that's where the Apocrypha is found; isn't that right?

MR. PANOSH: Object, please.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. HATFIELD: This is relevant, Your Honor, and I'd like to be able to show how it is relevant.

THE COURT: Well --

MR. HATFIELD: This is cross-examination.

THE COURT: -- I'll allow you to proceed, if you can make --

MR. HATFIELD: This is the only witness he has.

THE COURT: Go on and ask your question, sir.


1543

MR. PANOSH: We'd ask that the comments of counsel be stricken, about what --

MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, I object to the insincere objection.

THE COURT: Both of you remember what I told you at the bench.

Proceed.

Q    Do you remember Natalie Kelly?

A    No, sir. That name does not ring a bell.

Q    Did you have an interest in learning about the Apocrypha?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    And the Apocrypha --

MR. PANOSH: We'd ask for a voir dire.

MR. HATFIELD: Judge, this is relevant.

THE COURT: Well, I don't know what --

MR. HATFIELD: This is relevant.

THE COURT: Wait just a minute, sir. He's asked for a voir dire.

Step out, members of the jury, please. Remember the instructions.

Approach the bench.

(The jury left the courtroom at 10:14 a.m.)

(The following proceedings were had by the Court and all three counsel at the bench, out of the hearing of the jury.)


1544

THE COURT: What's this all about?

MR. PANOSH: I have no idea. We've asked for and been granted reciprocal discovery, and we haven't gotten anything.

MR. HATFIELD: I am not going to tell him my strategy.

THE COURT: I want to know what the relevancy is.

MR. HATFIELD: Because he discussed it with the defendant, and the defendant's charged with first-degree in a death penalty case. That's why.

THE COURT: Discussed what? Who did?

MR. HATFIELD: The Apocrypha.

THE COURT: Who discussed the Apocrypha? MR. HATFIELD: That guy. The witness.

THE COURT: With who?

MR. HATFIELD: With the defendant.

THE COURT: You may ask him that, but how -­MR. HATFIELD: Thank you. That's what I was doing, before the objection.

THE COURT: How is it relevant, the other part?

MR. HATFIELD: Because it shows memory and it shows relationship. And it shows what we're trying to -­This is the only witness they've got. Can I just cross-examine him, Your Honor, please?

THE COURT: I'm letting you do that, but I want


1545

you to move along with it. If it's relevant.

MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, as you can tell, I have meticulous notes, which I am using, which I stayed up half the night writing. And I feel like, without these incessant, insincere --

THE COURT: Don't --

MR. HATFIELD: -- and obstructive objections –­

THE COURT: Don't get into that now. I've already warned both of you about that, personalities.

MR. HATFIELD: I haven't talked about him.

THE COURT: You started --

MR. HATFIELD: I don't even know him.

THE COURT: You're talking at the bench. Let's move along. If you want to get this thing in today, we got to move along. But I'll let him ask those questions.

MR. HATFIELD: Thank you.

MR. PANOSH: Your Honor, I think that as long as the jury's out -- I still don't see any relevance –­

THE COURT: Well --

MR. PANOSH: -- but as long as the jury's out, we'd ask for an inquiry.

MR. HATFIELD: I object.

MR. PANOSH: I have to admit, I have no idea what the Apocrypha is.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, he's -- you're a Catholic.


1546

MR. PANOSH: Thank you for pointing that out. And I don't think that's appropriate.

MR. HATFIELD: Sorry. I didn't know your religion was irrelevant.

THE COURT: Here. Stop. I'll let you pursue it, as long as you make it relevant.

MR. HATFIELD: Thank you, Your Honor.

(Proceedings continued in open court.)

THE COURT: Bring them back.

(The jury entered the courtroom at 10:17 a.m.)

THE COURT: You may continue with the cross-examination --

MR. HATFIELD: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: -- Mr. Hatfield.

MR. HATFIELD: Thank you very much.

Q    So you were curious about the Apocrypha; is that correct?

A    I'm sure I would have been.

Q    And you discussed the Apocrypha with Ronnie Kimble, didn't you?

A    I don't recall discussing that with Ronnie Kimble.

Q      But you recall registering some curiosity about what the Apocrypha was, isn't that so?

Q      A    Yes, sir, I was --

Q    Do you remember --


1547

A    -- curious about that.

Q    Sir?

A    Yes, sir, I was very curious about the Apocrypha.

Q    And do you remember Ronnie -- your telling Ronnie Kimble that you had learned some things about the Apocrypha, and his telling you that he would like to know what you learned? Do you remember that?

A    No, sir, I do not.

Q    And you don't remember telling Ronnie Kimble some things that you had learned from the books of the Apocrypha; is that right?

A    No, sir, I do not.

Q    Now, isn't it a fact that the Apocrypha would not be normally found in the Bibles that Southern Baptists use?

MR. PANOSH: We object.

MR. HATFIELD: I'll finish this --

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HATFIELD: -- in just a minute.

THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer, sir.

Q    Isn't that right, sir?

A    Yes, sir, it's not found in the Southern Baptist --

Q    But it is --

A    -- Bible.

Q    -- it can be found in certain Roman Catholic Bibles; is


1548

that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    So, Chaplain Soutiere being a Roman Catholic would have had a Bible that contained the Apocrypha; isn't that right?

A    I'm sure he would have.

Q    Now, did you talk to Chaplain Soutiere about the Apocrypha?

MR. PANOSH: We object.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A    What I --

MR. PANOSH: Your Honor, this is --

A    -- remember talking to Chaplain Soutiere about –­

MR. PANOSH: Your Honor, there is a privilege.

MR. HATFIELD: This is not a privilege. The guy isn't even --

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HATFIELD: This is not a Roman Catholic.

THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.

Answer the question, sir.

A    I remember talking -- what I -- the subject that I remember discussing with Chaplain Soutiere, the only subject that I remember discussing with him, was the origin of the Roman Catholic Church and a few of their beliefs and the origin of their church and where Southern Baptist came into play at.


1549

Q    Now --

A    That was basically all I remember of talking with him.

Q    All right. After the latter days of January of 1997, did you at any other time study the Apocrypha?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. HATFIELD: Won't take but a minute.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A    I haven't studied the Apocrypha in depth. I've studied what the Apocrypha is and the basic thoughts of what the Apocrypha are.

Q    All right. Prior to Ronnie's visit to your house, you had begun to study the Apocrypha, right?

A    No, sir, I haven't studied the Apocrypha, in the sense that I've studied the Bible and I've studied books of the Bible that as Southern Baptists we use. I have not studied the books of the Apocrypha. I've studied what the Apocrypha is, and that's basically it.

Q    But you have looked into it before Ronnie Kimble went up to your house; isn't that right?

A    Yes, sir, I'm sure I have.

Q    And you haven't really looked into it since then, have you?

A    Yes, sir, I have.

Q    You have continued to look into it; is that right?


1550

A    Yes, sir, I have.

Q    But you can't recall any discussions that you and Ronnie had about the Apocrypha; is that right?

A    No, sir, I can't recall that.

Q    Okay. Now, you were terrified on the morning of January 25th, according to your testimony?

A    I was terrified for my family.

Q    And yet, while Ronnie Kimble was still upstairs in your house, you just went downstairs and sat in the living room; is that right?

A    Yes, sir, I did go downstairs.

Q    Now, did you call your sister in Richmond, Virginia?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    Did you call her that morning, before Ronnie and Kim got up?

A    No, sir, I didn't. I called her after they left.

Q    All right. So you didn't notify your sister of your terror and your need for a gun that morning, did you?

A    I notified her that morning after they left.

Q    After they left. And before Debra asked you if Ronnie had confessed murder to you?

A    No, I believe it was after that, also, sir.

Q    So you and Debra now -- the both of you -- you and your spouse are talking about this business freely among yourselves; isn't that right?


1551

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And so, then you called your sister?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    What time did you call her?

A    I don't recall the time.

Q    Did you remember whether it was before lunch or after lunch?

A    No, sir, I don't, because if I recall correctly, we didn't eat that day. Both my wife and I have a tendency not to eat when we're very nervous or very -- nervous.

Q    But your wife had another reason for not eating, didn't she?

A    That's the only reason I know of.

Q    Well, she was pretty sick, too, wasn't she?

A    Yes, sir, she was sick from the pregnancy.

Q    She was so sick, she'd lost consciousness the night before, in the presence of both Ronnie and Kim; isn't that right?

A    Yes, she did. What happened was, she was pregnant, she was low on blood sugar, she was also anemic, and she did lay down and she did lose consciousness for a short period of _ time. And I didn't feel that -- the reason I haven't mentioned that previous to now was because I just didn't feel that that -- my wife's health was relevant.

Q    So when you were sitting with the five educated men on


1552

February 3rd, telling them the story, you just completely left out the fact that your wife had passed out the night before; isn't that right?

A    No, sir. I'm sure I told them that. But apparently they did not feel it was relevant, either --

Q    So --

A    -- or they would have written it down.

Q    So this written document that you've got in front of you is really just what they think is important and relevant, isn't it?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And it wasn't relevant that your wife passed out in the presence of Ronnie and Kim the night before, was it?

A    I don't feel so.

Q    Did you feel that it was relevant that Ronnie Kimble carried your wife upstairs while she was still in an unconscious state?

A    What happened was, Ronnie Kimble helped me, assisted me to carry my wife up the stairs. That was very distressing to me. But I couldn't carry her up the stairs alone, because of how narrow the stairway was, and I needed help. It was very distressing to me, but I was actually very glad, I thought it was for the best, because I knew that my wife can tell when I was upset, and I knew my wife would not have been able to deal with it, as I was able to deal with it,


1553

and wait until morning. And I was very glad that this had happened, even though I was concerned for her health, because I did not want her aware of that that night, because I was afraid she would not be able to control herself, in that she would be very upset, and that would in turn upset Ronnie Kimble, and he may become violent.

Q    He might become violent, when he -- in fact what he was doing was, helping you deal with your wife, who had lost consciousness?

A    What I was saying, sir, was that if he was aware that my wife knew, and my wife got upset about it, that he might become violent.

Q    This violent murderer helped you deal with your wife's illness that night, didn't he?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And even though she passed out, you didn't take her to the emergency room or call a doctor or anything, did you?

A    His suggestion to me was that they could stay with the children, while I took her to the hospital. And there was no way I was going to leave him there with the children. And my wife had had these spells in the past, where she had become very dizzy and had to lay down. The doctors had told her it was because of her low blood sugar and things of that nature. So I knew she would be okay. And not only that, we had no money, any way to take her to the doctor, or


1554

insurance.

Q    But you would have had the university health insurance that every other student of the 8,000 students at Liberty University has, Mr. Whidden.

A    Those health services, you have to pay for those health services, just as you would a normal doctor, and I don't believe they're available 24 hours a day.

Q    Now, this was the beginning of your second semester of your first year at the Bible Institute; isn't that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    You were very familiar with the practices and the procedures of the school, because you had already completed an entire semester there, hadn't you?

A    No, sir. I was familiar with the Bible Institute's. I never really got that much involved with the university.

Q    But didn't you tell me a few minutes ago that the Institute students have the same benefits as the university students?

A    Yes, sir. But the particular benefits never did actually interest me to take an interest and notice into what all those benefits were.

Q    Now, did you tell the five educated men -­

MR. PANOSH: We would object.

THE COURT: Well, sustained.

Disregard that comment, members of the jury.


1555

Q    Did you tell the two lawyers, the homicide sergeant, the SBI agent, and the lead investigator of this first-degree murder case, who were all assembled in an office with you, this story that you have now told the jury, about your wife literally passing out, and Ronnie Kimble helping you to do what you could not have done by yourself and carry her upstairs? Did you tell those men that story?

A    I know that I told those men that story. I don't recall exactly which visit that I told them that in.

Q    All right.

A    Although I have mentioned it to them at some point.

Q    But if you look at the exhibit that you have before you, there's not a trace of that story in it, is there?

A    Not that I see, sir.

Q    Now, of course, you also told those gentlemen the story of your terror of Ronnie Kimble, didn't you?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    But you had a perfect opportunity to get rid of Ronnie Kimble, because you could have said, "I've got to take my wife to the emergency room. I'll just take these kids with me. And you and Kim, get in your car and go to a motel or go home, because I want to lock this house"?

A    Yes, sir. I wish I would have thought of that at that time.

Q    The fact is, you weren't the least bit afraid of Ronnie


1556

Kimble that night, and you were very grateful for the help he was able to give you; isn't that right?

A    No, sir, that's untrue.

Q    And the fact is, that that motel you claim you checked in the next night cost more than it would have cost to take your wife to the emergency room; isn't that right?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A    I can't begin to estimate what the cost would have been at the emergency room.

Q    Well, could you estimate the cost of that motel room, by looking at the receipt?

A    If I'm not mistaken, it was around $90 --

Q    You don't remember, do you?

A    -- altogether.

(Time was allowed for the witness.)

A    It appears that it was $75. I believe the --

Q    $90, $75, who paid it?

A    We paid it.

Q    Well, you could have paid an emergency room visit.

THE COURT: Well, you're arguing with him -­

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: -- Mr. Hatfield. Objection sustained.

Q    The fact is --

THE COURT: Move along.


1557

Q    -- on the night of the 24th of January, you chose not to pay an emergency room visit bill, did you, if you really had to pay one?

MR. PANOSH: We object.

Q    But the next night, when Ronnie Kimble was in Julian, North Carolina, you chose to go and check in a motel; isn't that right?

A    Yes, sir, I did go check in a motel room.

Q    And again, without looking at that receipt, you couldn't remember to within $15 of how much that motel room cost, could you?

A    What happened was, we had had a certain amount of money in the bank at that time that we had to live off of. We were concerned about money. But at the time, when I saw how fearful and how frightened my wife was, at that point, would have done anything to get a hotel, because of how frightened she was, in looking after my family.

Q    Why didn't you take her to the emergency room the next day, after the Kimbles had gone down to Julian?

MR. PANOSH: Objection, please.

THE COURT: Sustained.

We've been over it. He's answered. Move on.

Q    The fact is that the decision to go to the motel was your sister's advice, wasn't it?

A    I'm quite sure that my sister and my wife and I sat


1558

around and discussed it, and that's the conclusion that we came to, together.

Q    So you didn't decide to go to a motel until your sister had driven from Richmond, Virginia to Lynchburg, Virginia; is that right?

A    I don't recall the exact time that we decided to stay in the motel.

Q    Do you recall your sister -- you called her in Richmond, didn't you?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    What's the distance between Richmond and Lynchburg?

A    I'm not sure how many miles. I know it takes approximately two to two and a half hours to drive that distance.

Q    And your wife -- your sister got in the car and drove down; is that right?

A    Yes, sir, with a friend.

Q    With what?

A    Yes, sir, with a friend.

Q    With a friend. And with a gun?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And the gun was for you; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    So that you could protect yourself against a Marine who was heading back to the Marine base?


1559

MR. PANOSH: Object, please. Argument.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    What was your purpose in --

MR. HATFIELD: Argument?

Q    What was your purpose in having the gun?

A    In case Ronnie Kimble got to thinking about me being the only one he had told, and got upset about that and wanted to come back and harm my wife and I.

Q    Ronnie Kimble didn't even know you thought he'd killed Patricia, did he? When he left your house that morning, he had no idea that you thought he had killed Patricia, did he?

A    He knew that. I mean --

Q    You completely --

A    -- that's the reason he left.

Q    -- dissembled --

MR. PANOSH: May he finish?

THE COURT: Wait just a minute.

Q    Did you have more to say?

A    He knew -- he knew that he had told me, and he knew that's the reason he had to leave when he left.

Q    Well, you had a perfect way to have him leave, because your wife was passed out and you needed to take her to an emergency room, and you didn't use that as an opportunity to have him leave.

MR. PANOSH: Objection.


1560

Q    He didn't know he had to leave, did he?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: Objection sustained.

We've been over that, Mr. Hatfield. Move along.

Q    The fact is, you and Ronnie Kimble, according to your statements, agreed while you were upstairs in your bedroom that you wouldn't let the wives know what you'd been talking about; isn't that right?

A    Yes, sir, we did.

Q    Because that's what you said in the statement, isn't it?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And so, you and Ronnie Kimble, after you agreed that you were going to go down and look at the weather report, to see whether Ronnie should leave -- that's what you told the officers, isn't it?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    You went down and looked at the weather report, didn't you?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And what did you find out when you were looking at the weather report?

A    I forget what the exact weather was, but I do remember that the weather did not -- was not relevant to him leaving that night. The weather would not have been a good excuse


1561

for him to leave that night, in other words, to avoid any bad weather --

Q    So --

A    -- in traveling.

Q    -- you and he had this agreement that you were going to go down and check the weather, and according to what the weather was, he was either going to stay or go; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    So what was the weather?

A    The weather was not going to be bad the next day or to some extent, whatever the end result of what the weather was, was that it would not be relevant to him leaving that night.

Q    You don't remember what the weather was, do you?

A    No, sir, I don't remember exactly what the weather was.

Q    You don't remember what the weather report said the weather was, do you? MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

He's answered that, sir.

Q    You do not recall what you found out from seeing the weather report, do you?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

A    Yes, sir, I do.


1562

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q    What did you find out?

A    I found out that he had no excuse to leave that night

Q    Did you find out --

A    -- due to the weather.

Q    -- that it was --

THE COURT: Well, he's answered it, sir. Move on.

MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, he said --

THE COURT: He's answered. He's said. He's told what the weather was.

MR. HATFIELD: Request a voir dire. I'd like to put --

THE COURT: He's answered --

MR. HATFIELD: -- this on the record.

THE COURT: -- the question. Move along. Next question.

Q    Was it sleeting?

THE COURT: He's been over it, sir. He's answered that question. Move on.

Q    You told the jury yesterday that you found out the weather was nice, and therefore, he didn't have to leave; isn't that right?

A    I found out that the weather was not an excuse for him to leave that night.


1563

Q    But if the weather was nice, it would have been fine for him to leave, wouldn't it?

MR. PANOSH: Object.

THE COURT: You're arguing with the witness, Mr. Hatfield. He's answered the question. Move on, sir.

Q    If it was not sleeting and snowing, then it would have been safe for Ronnie and Kim to get in their vehicle and drive the hundred miles to Greensboro that night, wouldn't it?

A    I don't recall exactly what the weather was.

Q    Now, on February 3, 1997, when you met with the five gentlemen, had you decided at that point in time that you were going to withdraw from school?

A    I don't remember exactly at what point I decided not to with-- decided -- Oh, actually, yes, sir, I do. Sorry.

Q    Do you remember?

A    Yes, sir, I do. I did decide at some point before that meeting that I would be leaving school, because during that meeting, they asked me to help them out, and I told them that I would not be around long enough to do that, because I was moving out of the state and dropping out of school.

Q    So you told them you were going to quit school?

A    Yes.

Q    You told them you were going to pull out of there, if they were going to try to make you be a witness; isn't that


1564

right?

A    Yes -- no, no, sir, that's not correct. Would you please restate the question.

Q    You told them you were going to pull out of there, if they expected you to be a witness in this case, didn't you?

A    No, sir, I didn't tell them that.

Q    Well, then, can you explain why in Paragraph 3 of that statement, Mr. Pendergrass wrote, "Whidden stated he is currently attending Liberty University and is planning to enter the ministry following graduation"?

A    Could you please say what page and paragraph, sir.

Q    Yes, sir. That's Page 1, third paragraph, first sentence.

A    That appears to be -- again, this is just a summary of what I said, not my exact words, but what it appears to be was, me giving them my plan for attending the university and - going into the ministry afterwards.

Q    So they wrote that you were currently expected to graduate, but the fact is that you told them you were going to pull out of school, if they wanted to make you a witness; isn't that right?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A    No, sir, I never told them that I would not be a witness. All I told them was that I would not wear a wire


1565

and/or a tape recording device. And I told them that I would be -- I told them that I would finish school and go into the ministry afterwards, but I would have to come back to do that --

Q    Well, now, you know, sir --

A    -- after they were in jail.

Q    Okay. You know that there's not one word in the February 3rd statement about wearing a wire, whether you wanted to or not, is there?

A    No, sir. This is a statement of -- this is a summary of what I said, not a summary of what they had asked me to do.

Q    But you just told the jury that you were talking to them about quitting school being put in the report, talking about -- to them about not wearing a wire, which they didn't put in the report. They put nothing in the report about whether you were willing to wear a wire or not, did they?

A    I don't see anything in there about that.

Q    And they also put nothing in there about you having any substantial fear of Ronnie Kimble, did they?

A    I would have to read over all of it, to actually say that they never said that that's not in the statement. If you'd like me to read over the statement, I can do that.

Q    Well, I thought you read it over before you testified. Isn't that what you told us earlier?


1566

A    Yes, sir, I did, but I don't remember the entire statement verbatim.

Q    There's nothing in there about you being distraught, either, is there?

A    Again, I'd have to reread the whole statement, to --

Q    You heard Dr. Falwell describe your appearance when he saw you as distraught, didn't you?

A    Yes, sir, he did.

Q    Is that -- was that an accurate description by Mr. Falwell?

A    Yes, sir, I believe it was.

Q    Well, now, your sister got down here before you went to the basketball game, didn't she?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    So, by the time you went to the basketball game, where was your gun?

A    I don't remember where we kept it.

Q    Did you take it to the game with you?

A    I'm sure I wouldn't have taken it in the game. It may have been in the vehicle. I don't remember.

Q    Now, Dr. Falwell said it was difficult for students to get to him when he was in the chancellor's box. Did your sister go in there and help you get to Dr. Falwell?

A    It was my sister and her friend.

Q    Did they introduce you to Dr. Falwell?


1567

A    They brought me to Dr. Falwell. We had already been introduced, to the best of my memory.

Q    So, the reason Dr. Falwell talked to you was because your sister accompanied you and helped you get right up to him while the game was going on?

A    My sister and her friend.

Q    Who was Falwell's friend, your sister or her friend?

A    Her friend that helped me get there was Dr. Falwell's daughter.

Q    So, the way you got to talk to Dr. Falwell in the middle of the basketball game was, his own daughter --

A    Yes, sir.

Q    -- brought the matter to his attention?

A    What his daughter told him, to the best of my memory, was that I needed to speak with him about an urgent matter.

Q    And Dr. Falwell observed that you appeared to be distraught, didn't he?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And after you told him the story, he observed that it was a bizarre story, didn't he?

A    Yes, sir, he did.

Q    Well, tell us what you told him.

A    I told him, to the best of my memory, without trying to quote word for word what I told him, I told him that Ronnie Kimble had confessed to murder to me, that he had killed his


1568

sister-in-law, and that he had did it for money, his brother paid him to do it, and that it was the same man that had spoken with him the day prior.

Q    Now, when you spoke to Dr. Falwell and told him this story, he didn't understand who you were really talking about, did he?

A    I can't be sure. I know that I explained to him who it was. I can't be sure as to what -- I can't be sure as to what his recollection of that was.

Q    First, he knew you were talking about murder; isn't that right?

A    I don't remember whether I told him names first or events first. I can't recall the chronology that I talked to him in. I just know that I told him both names and events.

Q    Isn't it a fact that he had to ask you some questions, in order to clarify in his own mind who you were talking about?

A    Not that I recall. I believe I stated that to him, explained to him who it was.

Q    So, do you think that he immediately understood that you were talking about his old friend, Ron Kimble's –­

Q    MR. PANOSH: Objection.

Q    -- sons?

THE COURT: Sustained to the form of the question.


1569

Q    You knew way before any of this happened that Ronnie Kimble had a substantial connection to Liberty Bible Institute, didn't you?

MR. PANOSH: Objection. Which Ronnie?

THE COURT: Overruled, if he knows.

A    I knew that he had a connection from the Bible Institute, because he told me that that's where his father went to school.

Q    Right. Ronnie, who's seated beside me, told you his dad went to Liberty Bible Institute, right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    You knew that, didn't you?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    You knew it before Kim and Ronnie came up to your house?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And you knew that from talking to Ronnie, that Dr. Falwell had consecrated Ronnie's dad's church down here in North Carolina, didn't you?

A    I don't recall whether I knew that at that time or not.

Q    Well, you knew Ron, Sr. had taken a certificate and finished the Bible Institute, didn't you?

A    All I knew was that his father had went to the Bible Institute.

Q    I mean, that was something that was very similar about


1570

both you and Ronnie, not only were both of you Marines, right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And both of you had spent some time in the chaplain's office; that's correct, isn't it?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And neither one of you really wanted to make a career in the Marine Corps, right?

A    No.

Q    And both of you were very interested in biblical studies; am I right about that?

A    I was, and I assume he was.

Q    You knew he was --

A    He expressed that interest to me.

Q    On many occasions, right?

A    I wouldn't use the term "many."

Q    Well, it wasn't all shooting pool and talking about Patricia's death, was it?

A    No.

Q    It was also talking about Bible studies, talking about faith, talking about your future in the ministry, and those kinds of things, right?

A    I'm sure it would have been.

Q    The cement of your friendship with Ronnie Kimble was your common devotion to the Lord, your membership in the


1571

Southern Baptist faith, and your desire to be ministers of the gospel; isn't that right?

A    No, sir, I wouldn't say that.

Q    That's not the cement that held you guys together?

A    No, sir, I wouldn't say that.

Q    In any event, when you went up to Dr. Falwell, to tell him what you believed Ronnie had told you, did you make an effort for Dr. Falwell to understand which family you were talking about?

A    Yes, sir, I believe I did.

Q    And when you finally got that idea across, he was horrified, wasn't he?

A    I can't say what his state of mind is. He deals with so much stress and pressure every day, that he doesn't let things affect him overly. So I can't state whether he was horrified or not. I don't know what his mental state was at that time.

Q    You saw that he was shocked, wasn't he?

A    Yes, sir, he was shocked.

Q    And when he said you were conflicted yesterday, he was conflicted, too, wasn't he?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    You saw that, didn't you? MR. PANOSH: Objection.


1572

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    Based on your observations, and the shock that you saw in his demeanor, you knew that he was conflicted, too, didn't you?

A    Again, sir, I can't tell.

Q    So he immediately told you to go see the lawyers, right?

A    Yes, sir, he did.

Q    Now, you say that when you left the basketball game, it was dark?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    But you met with the lawyers after the basketball game, didn't you?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    Where did you meet with them?

A    I met with only one of the lawyers after the basketball game, and that was actually in the -- in the -- in the basketball court there. Dr. Falwell recommended that I talk to his son, and that we set up a meeting, and that's what we intended to do. But it so happened that he was available that night, so I was able to discuss it with him then.

Q    So you talked to the lawyer Jerry Falwell, Jr. that night --

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    -- in the basketball arena?


1573

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    Where did you and he go?

A    We discussed it in the bleachers, after the game.

Q    So the people are streaming out of the basketball arena, and you and Jerry Falwell, Jr. are just sitting in the bleacher, talking?

A    No, sir. We discussed it after the basketball game, when most of the people had already cleared out.

Q    So the arena was basically empty, other than the cleanup people?

A    There was still a few lingering people, part of the crowd. But basically, most of the people had left at that time, to the best of my memory.

Q    Did he advise you that you should go to a motel?

A    I don't recall whether he advised that or not.

Q    Do you remember what he did advise you?

A    Yes, sir. He advised me that I take it very seriously. And he told me that he would look into it and he would see who the -- what the next step should be that we should take. Things of that nature.

Q    Did he recommend to you that you and your wife and your two children get in your vehicle and immediately drive to Camp Lejeune, to locate Ronnie Kimble?

A    No, sir, he did not.

Q    But you did, subsequent to talking to Dr. Falwell's


1574

son, in fact do exactly that, didn't you?

A    Excuse me, sir?

Q    After you talked to Jerry Falwell's son, the lawyer,

you then put your family in your vehicle and drove to the vicinity of Camp Lejeune and stayed with friends?

A    Not immediately.

Q    You didn't do that immediately?

A    Not immediately.

Q    Well, will you look at your calendar. We do --

A    Yes, sir.

Q    -- agree, don't we, that you were talking to Jerry Falwell, Jr. on Saturday, January 25th, in the late evening hours, after a basketball game?

A    Yes, sir, that's correct.

Q    And you didn't meet with any lawyers again until the 3rd of February, did you?

A    I don't recall the exact date that I met with lawyers after that, but February 3rd sounds accurate.

Q    Well, February the 3rd was a meeting in the offices of Falwell and Yeatts, where the other gentleman whose name I've reiterated?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    We all agree on that, don't we?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    What I want to know from you is, between the waning


1575

hours of the 25th of January, and the 3rd of February, did you meet with either Falwell or Yeatts or any other lawyers?

A    I would speak with Jerry Falwell, Jr. and Patric Yeatts over the phone, but not an official meeting.

Q    Did you tell either one of those gentlemen that it was your intention to put your family in a vehicle and drive down to the vicinity of Camp Lejeune, to meet with Ronnie Kimble?

A    I don't recall exactly telling them, but I'm quite sure I would have notified them.

Q    Well, you know, I'm really not asking you about assumptions. I would like you to use your memory, to tell facts. Did you meet with the lawyers --

MR. PANOSH: He's answered that.

Q -- between Saturday night at the arena and the 3rd, when there was a big meeting in which your statement was written down?

MR. PANOSH: Object, please.

THE COURT: You may answer again.

A    I don't recall whether we met after that or not.

Q    Now, let's be clear on something. Did you tell any of those lawyers that you were going to go down to Camp Lejeune and see Ronnie?

A    I can't be clear on that.

Q    But one thing you did understand from talking to Jerry


1576

Falwell, sitting there in that arena, was that if you had material evidence of a murder, that you would have to be a witness in court; you understood that, didn't you?

A    At that point, when I --

Q    Yes.

A    -- discussed it with Dr. Falwell? I wasn't -- I don't remember when I made that decision that I was -- and when I became aware that I knew that I would have to testify in court. I don't remember when I became aware of that.

Q    Well, by the time you talked to Mr. Panosh on the telephone on July 21, 1998, you told him you wanted the ball in your court, didn't you?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    What did you mean by wanting the ball in your court?

A    When we spoke with the -- when I spoke with the investigators, when I spoke with -- excuse me, not the investigators, when I spoke with the lawyers, prior to the meetings that I had with the investigators, I did speak with the lawyers in between then. And when I spoke with them, I -- we discussed it, and basically said it was best -- it would be best if, as he said, the ball remained in my court. And that's why we reached an agreement on the statement, that stated that they would be able to provide police protection for my family, in the event I needed it, and that I would not have to compromise the safety of my family, in


1577

the event that I helped out the police.

Q    But none of that was discussed on February 3rd, was it? None of that?

A    No, sir, you're correct. We did have a meeting in between that time, because that was discussed before that meeting.

Q    So, when was the meeting in between that time? It's Saturday night, you're sitting in the arena with Jerry Falwell, Jr. When did you have the next meeting?

A    I can't be dogmatic about the dates, but what I can say is that on Saturday night, after we left, we went and got a hotel. On Monday, the 27th, was -- had to have been sometime around the 27th, that we left to go down to Jacksonville, North Carolina, to stay with friends. We came back. I must have met with the detectives then -- or excuse me, with the lawyers then, because my child's birthday was on February the 1st, and we went up to my sister's house and stayed in Richmond for a couple of days, for birthday parties, came back, and then left for Florida shortly thereafter.

Q    After you and Jerry Falwell, Jr. finished talking in the arena, did you go to his office with him and meet with his partner, Patric Yeatts?

A    Not immediately after. Immediately after, we went to the hotel.


1578

Q    What?

A    Immediately after, we went to the hotel.

Q    So you finished talking to Jerry Falwell, Jr. in the arena?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And that was the first time you'd ever met Jerry Falwell, Jr.?

A    Probably was.

Q    Where was your sister?

A    My sister was probably with her friend, helping baby-sit the children, something of that nature.

Q    So you and Jerry Falwell, Jr. were alone?

A    If I'm not mistaken, my wife was present. She was sort of in and out, because of the children. She would have to baby-sit the children and may not have been attentive to the whole conversations.

Q    But it wasn't a meeting in a lawyer's office, and nobody was taking any notes, it was just a casual consultation between you and Jerry Falwell, Jr.; isn't that right?

MR. PANOSH: Object to compound.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A    That's what it was the night of the 25th.

Q    Then you and Debra and your children went to the motel; is that right?


1579

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And you don't recall whether Jerry Falwell, Jr. told you to go to a hotel or whether your sister told you to go to a motel?

A    No one told us to go to a motel. It was a decision that we made together. We discussed what the best thing is for us to do next. And somehow, during those conversations, we came to the conclusion it would be best for me and my family to go stay at a hotel, for our safety.

Q    The next morning was Sunday morning, wasn't it?

A    Yes, sir, it was.

Q    Did you go to Thomas Road?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    And how long did the church services at Thomas Road last?

A    They generally last between 11:00 and 12:00.

Q    Just an hour?

A    Yes.

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

A    Sunday school prior to that lasts longer, but if I'm not mistaken, we didn't go to Sunday school that morning.

Q    Now, it's Sunday afternoon and you've been to Thomas Road. What did you do then?

A    I don't recall. I know sometime between Sunday afternoon, after church, and the 27th, Monday, we left for


1580

North Carolina.

Q    Where did you spend that night?

A    At some friends' house.

Q    Where was that located?

A    That was located approximately 30 minutes from the base.

Q    So, are you saying that on Sunday afternoon, you drove to Camp Lejeune?

A    No, sir, I'm not. I'm saying that sometime between Sunday afternoon and Monday evening, we drove to Camp Lejeune.

Q    But I'm asking you specifically what you did Sunday afternoon.

A    Yes, sir. I can't recall that.

Q    Did you talk to any lawyers Sunday afternoon?

A    I don't recall that either. I don't --

Q    Did you --

A    I don't remember speaking with any lawyers Sunday afternoon, but I may have.

Q    Just so we can please move on, where did you spend Sunday night?

A    I don't recall whether we spent -- if I'm not mistaken, we spent Sunday night at our home, because we couldn't really afford another night at the motel.

Q    Did you at any time during that period on Sunday


1581

attempt to use a telephone to locate the whereabouts of Ronnie Kimble?

A    Not that I recall.

Q    You didn't call Ronnie's in-laws, the Stumps, in Julian, and ask them if Ronnie had passed through?

A    Not that I recall.

Q    You didn't call the Marine base and ask them if he had checked back in?

A    Not that I recall.

Q Well, back then, you would have been able to remember the names of lots of people associated with the chaplain's office, wouldn't you?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Because that was just a few months after you'd left the chaplain's office?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Whereas now, it's been 15 months and you can't remember anybody, right?

MR. PANOSH: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    All right.

THE COURT: How much longer are you going to be with this witness, sir?

MR. HATFIELD: Probably -- I don't know, Your Honor


1582

THE COURT: Well, let's --

MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor, I have about five more pages.

THE COURT: All right. Well, let's take the morning break.

Members of the jury, you may take the morning recess. It'll be a 15-minute recess.

You may step down, Mr. Whidden.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Let me see the attorneys at the bench a moment on an administrative matter.

(The witness left the witness stand.)

(The jury left the courtroom at 10:58 a.m.)

(All three counsel conferred with the Court at the bench.) THE COURT: You may declare a 15-minute recess. (A recess was taken at 11:00 a.m.)

(Court reconvened at 11:18 a.m. The defendant was present. The jury was not present.)

THE COURT: Bring them back.

(The jury entered the courtroom at 11:18 a.m.)

THE COURT: The bailiff's informed me one of the jurors is having a headache, due to the lights. Is that you, Mrs. West?

JUROR NUMBER 1, MS. WEST: Oh, no.

(Juror Number 8, Ms. Scoggins, raised her hand.)


1583

THE COURT: On the front row, Mrs. Scoggins. Okay. Do whatever you need to do, ma'am. If you need to wear dark glasses, to cut the --

MS. SCOGGINS: Okay.

THE COURT: -- glare, that's fine. There'll be no problem with that. If you need to close your eyes, you may do that. Just as long as you can keep concentrating on the testimony.

MS. SCOGGINS: I just didn't want you to think I was sleeping --

THE COURT: Well, we --

MS. SCOGGINS:    during the trial.

THE COURT: -- want you to feel okay.

And again, members of the jury, if we don't take breaks frequent enough, don't hesitate, sit there and suffer. Just raise your hand and use a schoolgirl or schoolboy system, just raise your hand, and I'll probably say, "What's the problem?" and you can kindly step out a moment and take care of it. So don't set there and be uncomfortable. If at any point you need a short break, and I'm not taking it frequent enough for you, just raise your hand, tell me you need to step out, and I'll be glad to accommodate you.

Okay. Come back to the witness stand, please, Mr.


1584

Whidden.

(The witness returned to the witness stand.)

THE COURT: You may continue with cross-examination, Mr. Hatfield.

MR. HATFIELD: All right. Thank you, Your Honor.

CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION by MR. HATFIELD:

Q    Mr. Whidden, you spent the night back in your apartment on Sunday night and got up the next day; is that right?

A    Yes, sir, that's correct.

Q    And the next morning, did you and your wife and the two children drive down to North Carolina?

A    Actually, my wife just refreshed my memory. We went to the doctor's that morning. She had a doctor's appointment that morning.

Q    And --

A    And we went to the doctor's first thing Monday morning.

Q    Okay. Was that her obstetrician?

A    Yes, it was.

Q    She was expecting your third child at that time; is that correct?

A    Yes.

Q    And can you tell us in what month she was in the period for the child?

MR. PANOSH: Object to relevance.

MR. HATFIELD: That's all I want to know.

THE COURT: Overruled.


1585

A    I can't imagine her being more than a couple months pregnant at that time.

Q    Okay. She was pretty close to delivery time when all this was happening; is that right?

MR. PANOSH: Object.

A    No, sir. I said --

THE COURT: Sustained.

A    -- that she was only --

Q    She had only been pregnant a couple of months, or she was a couple of months away from delivery?

MR. PANOSH: We object. This is not relevant.

THE COURT: Well, sustained.

MR. HATFIELD: It is relevant, because she passed out two nights before, and I just wanted to find out what her state of health was, without asking personal questions.

MR. PANOSH: She'll take the witness stand.

MR. HATFIELD: Judge, should I just change chairs?

THE COURT: Well, gentlemen, sit down, pace yourselves, behave yourselves, and move along.

Q    Can you just tell us what month of pregnancy she was in?

MR. PANOSH: Object, please.

THE COURT: Answer the question, sir, if you know. A    He was -- she was one to two months pregnant at that time.

 


1586

Q    Thank you. All right. After seeing the doctor, what did you then do?

A    After seeing the doctor, we then shortly thereafter packed up our stuff and went down to North Carolina.

Q    What?

A    We packed up our stuff and went down to North Carolina.

Q    Did you pack up enough stuff so you wouldn't have to go back to that apartment?

A    No, sir. Just enough to stay a couple days.

Q    And you visited friends in the vicinity of Camp Lejeune; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Now, when you were with these friends, did you tell the friends what you believed that you'd found out from Ronnie Kimble?

A    No, sir, I did not.

Q    You didn't share your concerns with them at all; is that right?

A    All I said to them was that, a friend of ours was in a great deal of trouble, and that I was -- that I had came down to talk to him, to try to get him to do the right thing. And that's basically where we left it.

Q    All right. Now, before you left, did you talk to Rick Buck?

A    I don't believe I talked with him before I left for


1587

North Carolina.

Q    Do you recall telling Rick Buck that you had a friend in trouble?

A    I don't recall.

Q    In any event, you told your people -- your acquaintances down near Lejeune that you did have a friend in trouble; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Did you tell Dr. Wilmington that you were going down to Camp Lejeune?

A    Not that I recall. I believe at that point, I had not yet discussed it with Dr. Wilmington.

Q    Now, the next day, did you get up and pack your bags and leave those friends?

A    What day are you referring to, sir?

Q    The day -- the 28th, the day you went on the base at Camp Lejeune and presumably met with Ronnie Kimble.

A We either left on the 28th, that evening, or on the 29th, which was Wednesday. I do not recall which day we left on.

Q    But you found -- later on, you found a receipt that appeared to indicate that you'd been at Lejeune on the 28th of January, didn't you?

A    I kept the receipt that was required to get a pass into the base, if you don't have the proper decal on your car.


1588

And I kept that receipt in my wallet.

Q    And the receipt says the 28th of January, doesn't it?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    So, since you have --

A    Or, excuse me, sir. I'm mistaken on that. I have it here, and it's the 29th, actually, says. Yes, it does. It says the 29th. I had the dates confused, sir.

(The witness handed an exhibit to Mr. Hatfield.)

Q    Could you show me where it says the 29th. Well, wasn't it issued on the 28th?

A    Oh, no, I'm mistaken. That must have been the date that it was good through.

Q    Right.

A    That must have been the date that it was good through. What I saw on there was the 28th.

Q    All right. So looking at the receipt --

MR. PANOSH: It has a red sticker on it.

MR. HATFIELD: Oh, okay. Sorry. No, I don't see a red sticker. Maybe it's on the envelope.

MR. PANOSH: On the envelope.

MR. HATFIELD: Okay.

Q    Showing what's been either marked for identification or received into evidence as State's 120, and looking at it, you can read that it was issued on the 28th; is that correct?


1589

A    Yes, that's correct.

Q    And expires on the 29th?

A    Yes.

Q    Well, which day did you go there?

A    I went there on the 28th.

Q    Did you leave your friends' house and pack up and go someplace else on the 29th, or did you go back and see your friends again?

A    I know that I left -- I know that I left by the 29th.

Q    Now, at this point in time, you're down at Camp Lejeune, the only conversation that you've had with any attorney at law was your short conversation with Jerry Falwell, Jr. in the arena after the basketball game, right?

A    I can't be sure of that. I met with the lawyers several times, and I can't be sure of exactly the dates that we met on.

Q So you just can't tell us whether you were down there at the direction of lawyers or whether you were down there on your own?

A    Yes, sir, I can say that.

Q    What?

A    I went down on my own initiative, because I felt it was the right thing to do.

Q    And the next day, did you and your wife go to the base, or did you just go by yourself?


1590

A    I went by myself.

Q    Did you take your gun?

A    No, sir.

Q    Did you have your gun with you on this trip?

A    I'm sure I would have brought it.

Q    Well, do you remember, sir?

A    Yes, sir, I did bring it.

Q    So you carried a gun over state lines. Did you have a permit for it?

MR. PANOSH: We object.

THE COURT: Well, sustained.

Q    So, where did you keep the gun?

A    In my vehicle.

Q    But you didn't take --

A    And then at the house, we took it out. I transported it down to my vehicle, and then I left it at the house with my wife, while I went to the base.

Q    So when you went to the base, you didn't have the gun with you; is that right?

A    Yes, sir, that's right.

Q    You can't take a gun on a military base, can you?

A    No, sir.

Q    All right. Now, the people you visited had a telephone, didn't they?

A    Yes, sir.


1591

Q    And before you left to go over to Lejeune to visit with Ronnie, you made a call, didn't you?

A    Yes, sir, I did.

Q    You called Ronnie, didn't you?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And your wife got on the phone, didn't she?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And your wife said, "Hi, Ronnie," didn't she?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And she was very friendly to him --

A    Yes, sir.

Q    -- isn't that a fact?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And you could hear what she said to Ronnie Kimble?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And she said, "We had a great time visiting with you and Kim," didn't she?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    "And we look forward to seeing you again," didn't she say that?

A    I'm sure she would have.

Q    And then you got on the phone and said, "Let's have lunch"?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And he said, "Fine." And that was your indicator that


1592

it was all right for you to go over and see Ronnie; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    He was completely friendly and receptive to you, wasn't he?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    You all were nice to him and he was nice to you; isn't that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Now, when you located him, he was at his assignment in the chaplain's office, wasn't he?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And you found him vacuuming --

A    Yes, sir.

Q    -- a few minutes before lunchtime, at noon, right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And you had already told him you wanted to have lunch with him?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    So you said, "Let's go," and he said, "I just need to finish up"?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And then he said he had to find his coworker or his supervisor and let her know that he was going to take off for a few minutes, right?


1593

A    Yes, sir.

Q    But he couldn't find her, right?

A    I don't recall whether he contacted her or not.

Q    You don't remember whether there was a third party there?

A    As I said again, I don't recall whether he contacted his supervisor or not.

Q    In any event, other than Ronnie, you didn't talk to anybody that day, until you'd finished talking to Ronnie, right?

A    Yes, sir, I did talk to someone else.

Q    Before you talked to Ronnie on the base?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Who?

A    I talked to -- where he was -- the chapel that he was in, I was -- my old barracks, where I used to work at, was across the street. So I just walked over there and looked around, maybe spoke to just a couple of people, asked how things were going there at my old unit.

Q    And that was because you had to kill a little time before your engagement with Ronnie for lunch; is that right?

A    Probably.

Q    Yeah. Then you found him vacuuming; is that right?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    So you -- he couldn't locate his coworker, so he


1594

decided to lock the chapel, so you all could go have a quick lunch; is that correct?

A    I don't recall whether he locked the chapel or not.

Q    In any event, you and he went out and got in his truck, didn't you?

A    Yes, we did.

Q    And he thought you were going to go to lunch, as far as you know; isn't that right?

A    I don't recall what he thought at that time.

Q    Well, but in any event, you made the engagement with him, based on having lunch?

A    The way I remember it, sir, that we agreed to meet during lunchtime. I don't believe we agreed to eat together.

Q    So, as you were walking to his vehicle, you said, "I've consulted some people about what you told me the other night," didn't you?

A    No, sir. If I'm not mistaken, I said that at the end of the conversation.

Q    So, you said -- what did you say to him?

A    I just told him that I had came down to talk to him about a few things, and he said, "Well, we can talk in the truck." We got in his truck. And then, we went from there.

Q    And you told him that you were very concerned about what you'd found out from him a couple of nights before, and


1595

he expressed surprise that you thought you'd found out anything, didn't he?

A    No, sir, he didn't.

Q    Didn't he tell you, when you brought up the subject, that that was a dream?

A    Yes, sir, he did tell me that.

Q    And you argued with him about that, didn't you?

A    No, sir. I wouldn't call it an argument.

Q    Well, when you told the gentlemen on the 5th of February what had happened with Ronnie, you told them that it seemed as if he was backing away from what he'd told you before, didn't you?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    So, he clearly said to you "What we were talking about was a dream," didn't he? He clearly said that to you?

A    No, sir, he didn't clearly say that.

Q    You understood that he told you that the substance of what he had said to you while he was up at your house was based upon a dream; isn't that right?

A    No, sir. That wasn't clearly established.

Q    And in fact, you again discussed with him a dream that you had had, didn't you?

A    I don't recall discussing a dream at that time.

Q    Because just like Ronnie, you have the same dream again and again and again, don't you?


1596

A    I don't recall any reoccurring dreams that I've had.

Q    You've had that dream that you told the jury about before the break several times, haven't you?

A    No, sir. I've had that dream once.

Q    Once that you can remember?

A    No, sir. Once.

Q    And after Ronnie told you that it was a dream, there was nothing more to talk about, you didn't have lunch, and you left; isn't that right?

A    No, sir. There was more to that conversation.

Q    Well, tell the jury how many minutes you and Ronnie were in his truck.

A    I don't recall exactly how many minutes we were in the truck.

Q    It was about --

A    I wasn't --

Q    -- three minutes, wasn't it?

A    -- keeping track of the time.

Q    Sir?

A    I don't know.

Q    It was about two or three minutes, wasn't it?

A    I don't know, sir.

Q    Long enough to have an extremely brief conversation, and after he told you it was a dream, you said, "Well, I've checked on what my responsibilities are." And he said,


1597

"What do you mean?" And you said, "I've been to a lawyer," didn't you?

A    That's not exactly the way the conversation went.

Q    Well, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Tell the members of the jury what you did say about a lawyer.

A    What happened was, we set in the truck and then -- and then we discussed this. He told me that he thought it was a dream, that he wasn't sure whether it was a dream or not. And I told him that if it -- that he would know if it was a dream or not, because he would know where the murder weapon was, and he would also be receiving money from his brother, and that would indicate that it was not a dream. And he said he just wasn't sure if it was a dream or not, and he thought maybe it was just a bad dream.

Afterwards, when I was getting ready to leave, I told him, I said, "Well," I said, "I've consulted a lawyer, and I've talked to them about what my responsibilities are." (Mr. Hatfield and Mr. Panosh conferred.)

Q    I show you a document, sir, and ask you if you will look. Is this the official court transcript of the proceedings on October (sic) 3rd? Can you tell from glancing at this? See that? (Indicated.)

A    I assume it is a -- Yes, sir.

Q    Have you ever seen this before?

A    No, sir, I haven't.


1598

Q    Okay. I ask you to look at Page 14, and these are questions and answers that Mr. Panosh was asking you. Do you see that Mr. Panosh asked you "And did you in fact speak to a lawyer or lawyers in Lynchburg, Virginia?" Do you see that?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And you said, "Yes"?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    "And based upon their advice, did you at a later time contact the police department," then he corrects himself and says "the sheriff's department?" Do you see that?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And you said, "Yes." And then it says, "And did there come a time when you were interviewed by Agent Pendergrass of the SBI and Detective Church of the Guilford County Sheriff's Department?" Do you see that?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And you said, "Yes, sir" to Mr. Panosh, didn't you?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And the question is, "And where did that take place?" What was your answer?

A    "That took place in the lawyer's office."

Q    Now, were you referring to the February 3rd meeting in Yeatts and Falwell's office?

A    Yes, I must have been.


1599

Q    Okay. Now, you see the question Mr. Panosh asked you, "Now, before actually being interviewed by Pendergrass and Church, did you have further contact with the defendant, Ronnie Kimble?" Do you see that question?

(Time was allowed for the witness.)

A    Yes, sir, and I answered incorrectly. I answered, "No, I did not, before the first interview." I must have been confused on the --

MR. PANOSH: May he have the rest of the transcript, before counsel takes it away and he was trying to read from it?

Q    Do you need to read this further? I'm sorry. I didn't know you needed to read it further. I thought you were explaining the mistake you'd made.

A    Yes, sir, I would like to read more of that.

(Mr. Hatfield handed a document to the witness, and time was allowed for the witness.)

A    Yes, sir, that was a mistake that I made on the chronology of events.

MR. HATFIELD: I have no further questions.

THE COURT: Mr. Panosh, additional questions?

MR. PANOSH: Yes, please.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION by MR. PANOSH:

Q    Showing you then State's Number 120, which you've already referred to, is that the parking pass?


1600

A    Yes, sir, it is.

MR. PANOSH: Seek to introduce Number 120.

THE COURT: The Court'll allow the introduction of 120.

Q    Showing you 117, which you've already referred to, is that the receipt from Days Inn?

A    Yes, sir, it is.

MR. PANOSH: Seek to introduce 117.

THE COURT: The Court'll allow the introduction.

Q    Showing you 131, the agreement that your counsel negotiated with the DA's Office, is that the agreement?

A    Yes, sir.

MR. PANOSH: Seek to introduce 131.

MR. LLOYD: Object on the grounds previously stated, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Objection overruled. I mean, objection sustained as to that.

MR. PANOSH: Your Honor, after their objection, they went into it extensively on cross-examination. I believe it's necessary for --

THE COURT: I've already ruled.

MR. PANOSH: -- clarity.

THE COURT: I've ruled, Mr. Panosh.

MR. PANOSH: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: Further questions of the witness?


1601

MR. PANOSH: Yes, please.

Q    You were specifically asked about what, if any, conversation you had with Ronnie Kimble at or about the time he was leaving your residence. What do you recall of that?

A    After the time he was leaving the residence, we talked and he said that he would -- he said that he would call me, that -- but he would not call me from his home phone, because he believed his home phone was tapped or had a bug or something of that nature, and that -- but that he would call me from a pay phone somewhere and contact me further. I then told him that I did not think that would be a good idea. And he was pretty insistent that he would want to call me later, and I said I didn't think it would be a good idea. And we left it at that.

Q    And in the conversation that you had with him at Camp Lejeune, did he make any similar comments?

A    No, sir, not that I recall.

Q    When he admitted to you that he had killed Patricia Kimble, what was his demeanor?

MR. HATFIELD: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q    At the time he made the statements to you in your bedroom, what was his demeanor?

A    He was crying and very upset.

Q    You were asked about a date in July of 1996 and asked


1602

whether you started school in July of 1996. Have you been able to clarify that?

A    Yes, sir, I have. We enrolled on July -- on the first of July. We enrolled the first part of July. And we -- but we didn't actually start school, classes didn't actually start until the following month. I was mistaken. They started around August 21st, was the actual classes.

MR. PANOSH: No further. Thank you, sir.

MR. HATFIELD: Just two questions, please, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes, sir.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION by MR. HATFIELD:

Q    Will you look at the exhibit -- your statement of November -- February 3rd, look at Page 4, please.

A    Yes, sir.

Q    Looking at the paragraph at the top of the page, in the middle of that paragraph, "Following this, Whidden stated . . ." Will you read that, please. Could you read it out loud to the jury.

A    Yes, sir, I could. It says, "Following this, Whidden stated he suggested to Ronnie Kimble that if he needed to talk with Whidden any further, that he should give him a call (sic) Lynchburg, Virginia residence."

Q    So, the fact is that on that date, you stated that you invited Ronnie to call you again; isn't that right? That's


1603

what you said?

A    I don't recall that. I don't recall ever telling -­asking him to call. I do recall asking him not to call our home.

Q    That's just another mistake, isn't it?

A    Yes, sir, that is a mistake.

Q    That one of the five gentlemen made when they wrote it up?

A    I can't say -- I can't say about how they copied what I said. All I can know is that what I told Ronnie Kimble is that I would rather he not call me.

Q    All right. Now, here's what you said under oath on the -- on Page 16 of your August 3rd statement. Read -- you were asked the question "Did there come a time when you offered to have further conversation with him?" I did read that question correctly, didn't I?

A    Yes, sir, you did.

Q    All right. Will you read your answer.

A    "He expressed interest that he might want to call me, and I suggested that he not."

Q    Okay. So that's your sworn statement, isn't it?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And it's right, isn't it?

A    Yes, sir.

Q    And the statement in the exhibit up there is wrong,


1604

isn't it?

A    (No response was given.)

THE COURT: Is that the extent of your questions, Mr. Hatfield?

MR. HATFIELD: Yes. That's my question.

THE COURT: You may step down.

MR. HATFIELD: Well, he hasn't answered, I don't

believe.

A    Yes, sir, that is an incorrect statement, and I did tell Ronnie Kimble that I would not want him to call me any further.

THE COURT: You may step down, sir.

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

(The witness left the witness stand.)

THE COURT: Stand and stretch, if you'd like, members of the jury.

 

 

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